>> I think that says something about the culture. It just doesn't work well. It's a confused, angst-ridden, horrible way of telling things that wants to be free yet continues to restrain itself for politeness. That leads to terribly written, convoluted stories that play to the lowest common denominator who is paying attention.

Haha. This is an excellent take.

I guess I should resist the urge to further derail the discussion by expounding on the cultural/social origins of mediocre storytelling in modern Japan.

One thing; As far as contemporary Japanese movie goes, the situation is not entirely hopeless. Just a few days ago, I've watched a movie that made me say "Ok, maybe not all the Japanese directors of today are complete idiots."

Interesting thread indeed.

Oh my goodness. Rocketpig, <3 you for responding to this already, but did he really just try to say that the correct way to tell philosophy is through explaining it so that everyone comes to the same conclusion?

---Begin Rant---

Philosophy; from Greek, philos and sophia, that is, the love of wisdom.

Throughout the ages, the one thing that has united philosophers of all schools of thought is this love for truth; it is not to be taught the truth, but to find it oneself.

As Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."  We were given our brains, language - everything that separates us from the non-sapient animals - why use them if all we do is turn our vast intellect into a glorified dictionary?

Language is imperfect.  Language can never capture the feeling that we call love, or the way the air smells after cutting the grass, or anything like that.  Language cannot capture these things; the point of philosophy (indeed, of all storytelling) is to use language to get YOU to capture those things for yourself. 

Don't mistake long dialogs that explain everything to you as being good philosophy or storytelling; if you are not getting the truth behind the story, you would be better off without having any dialog, as at least then you aren't wasting your time.  And the truth behind the storytelling; well, something tells me that with DTG's views on what makes storytelling good, he is not picking up anything from said story, so that tells me all I need to about Kojima's storytelling ability already.

Did you know that Ray Bradbury didn't think that Fahrenheit 451 was about censorship?  Shows how much some creators can be trusted to know all the levels of their own works.

Nietszche did write short stories with interpretive characters; read Zarathustra I "The Three Metamorphoses" (or the book in its entirety, for a novel-sized story with interpretive characters).  See also the famous "god is dead" chapter (Gay Sciences III).  Something tells me you also have either 1) not read Nietzsche and are only mentioning him because you think it makes you look smart, or 2) COMPLETELY missed the point of Nietzche.  Try rereading it.

First bolded phrase: Yes, but usually for objective outcomes only. However for higher order learning it's required for students to be able to analyze things that are not so blatantly obvious. It's what, as they say, seperates the A's from the B's.

Second bolded phrase: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Where did you get that from? Ideally, it is best to be able provide students with skills and tools that are needed to come to their own learning. The teacher, again, ideally, would act as a source of direction, support, focus and, when needed, information.

Unforunately, our system hasn't quite reached our present ideals, but to say that the status quo of the is the most efficient way is a bit silly.

Edit: I just read alpha's post... what he said as well.

Looks like the series going further down the path of MGS2 I didn't care for, oh well, I don't own a PS3 anyway so its not like my opinion on the matter really matters I suppose.

Chances are for them to have made a game as vivid and engaging as the first two chapters (which I've not played, but going on what people have said I will assume is the case) it would have required a couple more years of development and far more money than they were willing to risk on the project. The game had to come out someday so they compromised with cutscenes to make up the later bulk of the game. Just a theory, after all, I've not played it. Maybe I'm off the mark but its sounds strangely similar to DMC4 which was brilliant and intense in the beginning but lazy towards the end.

I'm finding it hard to believe that there are people who would find answers to any of the fundamental questions at the root of philosophy in a video game, but then some people are able to find the meaning of life on the head of a pin, so far be it for me to tell anyone what they gain from any experience.

The intent of the MGS games, as is that case with any game, is first and foremost to entertain.

Anything the player chooses to take from the experience beyond that is entirely on that individual.

I seem to recall Kojima saying something along those lines in an interview: that MGS4 is to entertain the player. It's not meant to be didactic. It's not telling anyone what to think. He's not trying to predict the future. There are moral overtones, typically expressed by the script writers speaking through characters, but this is no different from any form of media conveying any semblance of a message, big or small.

I recently finished the game so now I can go back and watch the perspectives BR-D without worrying about any spoilers, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing in there that has Kojima stating he's trying to present any sort of "truth" in an attempt to tell anyone how to think.

It's entertainment. Take from it what you will.

Actually at one point during the documentary Kojima says that he doesn't want gamers to play his games simply because they are fun or because they are bored. He wants players to think about the underying themes he presents.

Personally, I have always found that good (creative) entertainment typically was produced in order to say something ... It may not be the deepest or most meaningful thing, and it will quite often be a cliche, but by simply having something to say you create structure to your story and it doesn't just become a bunch of stuff that happened.

The problem I have had with Metal Gear games in the past is they seem to been created by coming up with a bunch of "Cool" stuff that happens, and the characters seem to be choosen because they will make "Cool" boss characters, and then the message is preached to the player through a bunch of long winded cut scenes that are full of bad dialoge and voice acting.

Now, for writing in a game this doesn't bother me that much but when people start claiming that it is fine art and that it is better story telling than books or movies I really start getting annoyed ...

There wouldn't be over 8 hours of story telling scenes if he didn't have something to say.

Naturally, he's using the video game media to express his own thoughts and perspective. MGS games have always had a more personal perspective than most games, which is why I imagine they hold so much appeal to most MGS fans.

But there's quite a distinction between that and an opinionated lecture being presented as a philosophical truth.

Ah. The vast majority of books and films are refuse. They entertain at best. Very few have any sort of lasting impact beyond commercial success when they are fortunate and well received enough for that.

When a work of literature or film stands the test of time seems to be the only indicator as to its lasting relevance. And that's often regardless of their inherent merits. Imagine all the works that were lost in the shuffle, never well received, long forgotten, but no worse than the works still being studied generations later.

And I agree with the "fine art" claim. Most video games go into the category of commercial art IMO. Same applies to MGS, with all its "cool" guy characters, bosses and gear. It still has to appeal commercially and crititcally to the players. Most people playing these games are not looking for a religious experience. At least I would hope not.

At any rate, most "fine art" falls into the same category as its literary and film counterparts. Most of it's imminently forgettable.

But that's one of the things I can appreciate about the MGS series; it's a genuine attempt to make something a bit more poignant than a series of unattached, meaningless events and conflicts. Unfortunately, most video games fall into this category which is why most people playing them aren't looking for fine art/literature/cinema

Whoa what's with taking it so personally. My roommate did not rush through the game. This game is very linear and there is only one way to go/play this. There is no exploration. Do you even have the game? The actual gameplay in the game is short. Probably around 6 hours if you are decent. And maybe 8 if you take your time. You my friend need to breath more.