[Reposting the pwning for convenience -- see page 12 for the arguments I refer to.  fagarcia75, if you read this, I mean "argument" to be the advancement of a series of points and counterpoints, not a shouting match as you seem to imply in your last post.  I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I intended that word to mean.]

A. Maybe God did have some kind of awesome plan, but that doesn't change the fact that, according to the Bible, he really really screwed up that man's life. There is no way for you to get around that plain and obvious fact. The fact that Job didn't complain about getting raped doesn't mean it didn't happen.

B. Every time I respond to your arguments, you shift to attacking something else without bothering to defend against my counterargument. It's getting old and frankly I won't do it anymore. Until you are ready to have a serious debate and actually hold your ground until the outcome of a point of contention is settled, you're not worth anyone's time.

C. Unless every time you shifted your argument you were conceding that I was right on the previous argument? If that is the case, just say the word and I retract my accusation with my apologies and we can make some headway.

Please respond.

 

I was trying not to get into this argument for awhile but what the hell.
Your mistake final fan is your misinterpretation. while I don't know what the bible says (not being chrisitan), your mistake is that you think that god "does" things. like god is above there watching us and checking us out. I think that is where you are mistaken. God doesn't do things, he isn't restrained to time as we are, he created the universe yes, he planted everything as it is, and he made the laws. He can't break a law because he wants to and help out a guy. The way I understand it, it has nothing to do with satan and god. If i remember correctly satan was banned from gods presence. I wouldn't think he would be able to cheat god and overcome that.
And that whole sun is shrinking thing was funny. I though gases take all the space that they can. I didn't know that the shrinking had anything to do with material. The way I remember it, it had something to do with the temperature.
Anyway, I tried to resist, it is just I think you are just twisting the truth, and that doesn't make a fair argument.

gorgepir said: I was trying not to get into this argument for awhile but what the hell. Your mistake final fan is your misinterpretation. while I don't know what the bible says (not being chrisitan), your mistake is that you think that god "does" things. like god is above there watching us and checking us out. I think that is where you are mistaken. God doesn't do things, he isn't restrained to time as we are, he created the universe yes, he planted everything as it is, and he made the laws. He can't break a law because he wants to and help out a guy. The way I understand it, it has nothing to do with satan and god. If i remember correctly satan was banned from gods presence. I wouldn't think he would be able to cheat god and overcome that. And that whole sun is shrinking thing was funny. I though gases take all the space that they can. I didn't know that the shrinking had anything to do with material. The way I remember it, it had something to do with the temperature. Anyway, I tried to resist, it is just I think you are just twisting the truth, and that doesn't make a fair argument.

I have no choice but to conclude that you are totally unfamiliar with the Old Testament, because you are completely ignorant of the fact that God constantly intervened, talked to people, etc. etc. 

Here is a passage from the Bible, Book of Job:

One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.  7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
      Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

 8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

 9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

 12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
      Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

 13 One day when Job's sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house, 14 a messenger came to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, 15 and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

 16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

 17 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

 18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, "Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

 20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:
       "Naked I came from my mother's womb,
       and naked I will depart.
       The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
       may the name of the LORD be praised."

 22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

 [END QUOTE]

So, I guess I stand corrected on two points:  First, God did not do bad things to Job, but rather gave Satan free rein to do bad things to Job.  Second, Satan wasted no time in destroying all of Job's possessions and family, when I had thought before that it had happened more gradually.  And that was the FIRST TEST!  There were more.  

And best of all, you are even more ignorant that fagarcia75 on matters of science as well.  Gases do take up lots of space, and expand when heated, unless of course there is some kind of GRAVITATIONAL FIELD HOLDING THEM IN!  And fagarcia75 was at least right in that the Sun is slowly consuming its own mass.   

I think I stated it above, I am not chrisitan and don't care for the text that you mentioned. It seems that you want to make up an argument and talk about it. Good for you.
I see that you couldn't argue with my point and talked about something for yourself. Then you go on and make fun of that fagarcia guy. Typical.
And regarding the gas. Duuh. Wow you are smart, good for you. I hope you get your degree soon. You must be one of the brighter ones in your school I guess. (this sarcasm is just a response to calling me ignorant). It is good to remember the conservation of mass law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass
"The law of conservation of mass/matter, also known as law of mass/matter conservation (or the Lomonosov-Lavoisier law), states that the mass of a closed system will remain constant, regardless of the processes acting inside the system."
To reiterate my point for you, god does not "live" in the time domain, therefore what he(she) does is not effected by time.

edit: it seems I was wrong about that temperature thing. it seems that when the sun uses all hydrogen and burns out the gas in it will just expand and the surface temperature will decrease. That is why I thought it had something to do with temperature. I guess it was the other way around.

gorgepir said: I think I stated it above, I am not chrisitan and don't care for the text that you mentioned. It seems that you want to make up an argument and talk about it. Good for you. I see that you couldn't argue with my point and talked about something for yourself. Then you go on and make fun of that fagarcia guy. Typical. And regarding the gas. Duuh. Wow you are smart, good for you. I hope you get your degree soon. You must be one of the brighter ones in your school I guess. (this sarcasm is just a response to calling me ignorant). It is good to remember the conservation of mass law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass "The law of conservation of mass/matter, also known as law of mass/matter conservation (or the Lomonosov-Lavoisier law), states that the mass of a closed system will remain constant, regardless of the processes acting inside the system." To reiterate my point for you, god does not "live" in the time domain, therefore what he(she) does is not effected by time. edit: it seems I was wrong about that temperature thing. it seems that when the sun uses all hydrogen and burns out the gas in it will just expand and the surface temperature will decrease. That is why I thought it had something to do with temperature. I guess it was the other way around.

Look, it's very simple: either you have not paid attention to the thread or you are mentally deficient (or both). I'm sorry if I presumed one when it is in fact the other.

I have been arguing with a CREATIONIST whose stated belief is that the Bible is a completely accurate and literal record of events. Therefore, when I refute his assertions using the Book of Job from the Bible, your talk about "well God doesn't intervene in the world or talk to people" is totally irrelevant to the conversation, and more importantly, your accusation that I am "twisting the truth" is plainly wrong when all I have done is quote the Bible at him at make obviously true assertions about events described therein.

As for "conservation of mass/matter", you appear to be unaware that the fusion powering the Sun in fact converts mass into energy. the total amount of (mass + energy) remains the same, but mass has been turned from hydrogen into helium and there is less mass and more energy.

To reiterate my main point for you, if you say that God does not act the way he is described in the Bible, you are simply not participating in the same debate that fagarcia75 and I am.

Perhaps I exaggerated when I spoke of your ignorance, but you are inserting commentary where it is borderline nonsense. I'm arguing about the God of the Bible with a literal-interpretation fundamentalist, and you say I'm "twisting the truth" by using events described in the Bible to discredit his assertions because 'God isn't like that'.

Then you make comments about the Sun that SEEMED to be talking about it being so big and not shrinking because it is gaseous and hot, which you now seem to admit is ridiculously oversimplified.

LOL. The "gas" "inside" the Sun (or rather the hydrogen plasma in the core and inner sphere) will not expand at all but rather grow ever denser until some rather complicated physical laws stop the collapse; the Sun will then be fantastically dense. I believe that you are referring to the outer portions of the Sun that, during the "red giant" stage of the Sun's lifetime, will expand due to being "pushed" out by the solar wind and decreased gravity due to the reduced mass of the future Sun -- AS I DESCRIBED EARLIER IN THE THREAD. This outer portion will indeed be much cooler than the Sun is today.

Whatever religious theory you do subsribe to, fagarcia75 and I are not talking about it. We are talking about literal-Bible-interpretation Christian theology, and specifically about events in the Bible that I assert depict God as casuing great pain to a person who did not deserve to be subjected to it at all.

A bit deep for a games forum don't you think?
I'm not surprised this has got so many replies. I'm a drifting atheist/agnostic and go through periods of really caring about whether there is a God and then periods where I couldn't care less. What I will say is that I don't believe in the Bible (for obvious reasons many people have already mentioned) and that I hate it when people use and discard science at will to suit their arguement, a technique I have found quite prevelant in Christians but only in the ones I have met so please don't flame me for that.

Yes

DonWii said: Yes

DonWii wins, flawless victory.

dangaming said: A bit deep for a games forum don't you think? I'm not surprised this has got so many replies. I'm a drifting atheist/agnostic and go through periods of really caring about whether there is a God and then periods where I couldn't care less. What I will say is that I don't believe in the Bible (for obvious reasons many people have already mentioned) and that I hate it when people use and discard science at will to suit their arguement, a technique I have found quite prevelant in Christians but only in the ones I have met so please don't flame me for that.

 Yeah i know a whole bunch of Christians like that. But they're so wrong. If God truly is real, then science could not go against him, it would rather be explaining what God has created and how it works to further our knowledge and understanding of our Universe created by God. Science has nothing to do with God so i hate when the religious nuts go out on thier rampages.

 Now about the Bible, people need to understand these things.

1. The Bible is a collection of Human written books from various periods of time.

2. The Bible therefore has a Human origin and therefore is a Human Document.

3. The Bible is inspired by God, therefore it is the Word of God.

4. Because the Bible is "Divine and not merely Human in origin" meaning that although the letters, histories, prophecies, songs, poems, and psalms in the bible are written by men and are human documents, the overall meaning and message that the bible contains is Divine and comes from God.

The fact that the bible today is just a translated version of the earlier versions of the bible (Dead Sea Scrolls) and have little to none changes in meaning (disregarding grammatical and trivial changes) and is a collection of books preserved over thousands of years and holds truth and meaning that always was could be considered a miracle in itself. A Christian who cannot trust the very Word of God is hardly a Christian to begin with. But the Word of God doesn't just come from a book...

dangaming said: A bit deep for a games forum don't you think? I'm not surprised this has got so many replies. I'm a drifting atheist/agnostic and go through periods of really caring about whether there is a God and then periods where I couldn't care less. What I will say is that I don't believe in the Bible (for obvious reasons many people have already mentioned) and that I hate it when people use and discard science at will to suit their arguement, a technique I have found quite prevelant in Christians but only in the ones I have met so please don't flame me for that.

I've found it to be common in the Christians that throw their Christianity in your face, which is a pretty specific subset of Christians.