hehe its a quite neverending story aswell.

alltho i think that everyone learn something of conversations so i still like your long posts :)

That Guy,

Im sorry if my post sounded agressive or offensive, as it really was not meant to be in any way. If it offended you, I apologize. I myself dont like to make blanket statements, but in the world of biblical criticism it is usually taken as a given that the Bible has many contradictions and misstatements. I am not saying that these should disturb your faith, but the fact that they exist is of little doubt. (Even to believers)

First let me say again that you are right in your statement that "the old testament records a lot of history, most of which has been confirmed by secular souces." Although I know a few people that would argue with the "most" part of that, I will grant that many incidents in the bible do have some secular confirmation. (Unlike the Mormon books which have literally nothing) 

On the subject of contradictions... well I really dont want to go down this road too far because it is really quite pedantic and makes me seem like some kind of vulgar man with too much time on this hands who has missed the point about the whole thing.. So lets just start with this one (there are many more):

How about the example of the resurrection of Jesus? Compare all the accounts of when the followers went to Jesus tomb. Who went to Jesus tomb? How many people went? What did they see? Who did they meet?

See Matthew and Luke. The disciples in Matthew are told "Go to Galilee and meet Jesus" and they go and meet Jesus. In Luke they are told "Dont leave Jerusalem" and they meet Jesus there. Which is it?

As for historical accuracy, ill give a few examples off the top of my head:

The Census

The empire wide Roman census that occured during Jesus birth has no secular support, and seems like a very strange thing for the Roman empire to do. It is not mentioned in any other text. Can you imagine each member of the entire Roman empire forced to go back to their homeland?(Why would they all have to go back to their place of birth? This makes no sense. We can guess why this story was made up though.)

The trial of Jesus

Just how do we know what happened during the trial of Jesus? His followers were not there. It is not as though the Pilate or the two priests gave accounts afterwards. Pilate most likely did not give an interview afterwards. So what we have of the conversations between Jesus and Pilate are most likely made up afterwards. Its kind of like the story you hear about the man who dreamed he was killed and then he died in real life at the same time.

Blame of the Jews

With the passage of time the bible places more and more blame on the Jews for the death of Jesus. In the earliest gospel, Mark, Pilate only askes the crowds once if he should release Jesus and then has him killed. Next is Luke. Pilate this time says Jesus is innocent but the Jews still want him killed. Matthew is next. Pilate again says Jesus is innocent, and even washes his hands of the blood of Jesus, and the crowd cries out "His blood be upon us and our children". Mind you this verse is only in Matthew. In John, the last and oldest gospel, Pilate tries 3 times to stop the execution, but the crowds would not have it. So Pilate actually gives him over to the crowds and they kill him. 
Pilate becomes more innocent, and the Jews become more guilty with the passage of time in the Bible. This is because the early Christians began to fight more and more with the Jews of the time.

Each book has its own aim and purpose. One book stresses one thing, while another stresses something else. Each has its own account, which sometimes steps on or changes the story a little. 

(On a side note: You dont really think a star actually led the three wise men do you? And that it stopped above a house to show them where Jesus was? How does a star do that exactly?) 

Next you mentioned the prophecies:

"I would argue that all the prophecies have come true exactly as they were foretold."
"300+ prophesies surrounding Jesus."  

The problem is that the story was written to make sure the prophacies were fullfilled and not the other way around. That is why the story of the census had to be made up to cover for the fact that Jesus was most probably from Nazareth. The same is true I believe with the geneology of Jesus in the Bible. It is changed so that it conformes to the Old Testament.  I dont have as much of my sources on hand about this as I would like, but I guess I may have to dig them out later depending on how this goes.

A literal reading of the bible is not very productive. I suggest that when you are challenged by Atheists, you dont pick up your science and history books, but instead pick up your Kierkegaard.

@rickthestick2

You stated "Prove my Christianity wrong i dare you. "

Im sorry, but I dont know your Christianity, and I dont really want to prove it wrong. Just from that statment alone I can see you dont want to have a calm conversation so I dont know if will be productive to have a dialogue with you. You seem very agressive, and saying "my" Christianity to me is very strange and suspect.  Why am I already an enemy to you?

On a side note, I reccomend to everyone to read the New Revised Standard Edition of the Bible, as it is famous for its good translations and many helpful notes and commentary. It is used in many University classrooms for a good reason. 

I apologize for my long post. As to the question "Is there a God?" Arguments for and against to me are moot and almost meaningless. Lets say there is a God. Ok, now what do we do about it? We have to know what it wants or will do for us for this to make any difference in our life. That means we must also ask the question, is the Bible Koran or some other book the word of god or not.

in reply on the above (don't appologice ur long post, keeps the mindless people away, they are scared ;))

u stated "ok let's say there is a God, what we do about it?"

I think you're right. But I think that it would be better for the world to actualy proven that God is real then its proven that he's all made up (and this is not meant to be offencive to either believers and non-believers) but I know that many people do not believe because of their parents who didnt believe (like me), and people who don't want to believe. the 1st group will have it easier o acept the fact God is real, even they might not want it, they wont get upset either way so then. the 11% of the world people who dont believe might get convinced so lets say that 660 million people start to believe there is only 2.5% (the atheisit who will not believe ever) unhappy people wich are around 125 million people.

when its stated that God is all made up by some drunk or stoned people long long long ago there will be 87% of poeple unhappy because they believe and their believe and hope is basically broken like throwing a brick on a glass wall.
87% of the people is around 5.75 billion people.

so for the world (and it sounds weird for someone who doesnt believe at all) it would be better that God would be real. bcasue 5.7 billion people going crazy is more worse then 660 million people (altho alot to).

numbers from wikipedia =>religion.
assuming there are 6.6 billion people on the world.

ps
also assumed that all believers are true believers and realy believe.
so the people who believe because they are told so but dont believe at all are counted also. it was just to give and idea of the mess could happen.

Schopenhauer Rickthestick2

@rickthestick2

You stated "Prove my Christianity wrong i dare you. "

Im sorry, but I dont know your Christianity, and I dont really want to prove it wrong. Just from that statment alone I can see you dont want to have a calm conversation so I dont know if will be productive to have a dialogue with you. You seem very agressive, and saying "my" Christianity to me is very strange and suspect.  Why am I already an enemy to you?

I guess you didn't get my sarcasm. The whole point of me acting rude was to get the thread back on topic. Guess i just caused more problems. Truthfully i don't want to argue about Christianity, i'm tired of it. However i would love to talk about God and the like. And i say "my" Christianity simply because Christianity is different for different people. "My"Christianity is by the book, common sense, ethics, morality, and human thought all which God gave me. I don't want you to be my enemy please understand. But you come in posting about the contraversies and misconceptions in the Bible and go on about how there is all things wrong riddled in the Bible. It's more like you come in looking for a fight. Sorry if i offended you, but i simply meant to get back on topic which just so happens to be something i want to talk about.

On a side note, I reccomend to everyone to read the New Revised Standard Edition of the Bible, as it is famous for its good translations and many helpful notes and commentary. It is used in many University classrooms for a good reason. 

Also i would like to recommend a book called The Knowledge of the Holy by A.W. Tozer. Its an excellent book mainly for Christians and maybe even others because it delves into who or what God is.

I apologize for my long post. As to the question "Is there a God?" Arguments for and against to me are moot and almost meaningless. Lets say there is a God. Ok, now what do we do about it? We have to know what it wants or will do for us for this to make any difference in our life. That means we must also ask the question, is the Bible Koran or some other book the word of god or not.

I understand what you're saying. But know this, the word of God doesn't come through the book alone (at least according to Christianity). Anyways, "if" God exists, first you have to understand that just because you're Christian that doesn't mean that you are given eternal life. The Bible teaches us that the people who will be brought into heaven are from ALL walks of life, great or small, and from ALL levels of Faith, great or small. People may not be devout Christians but they may be shown the Mercy of God simply because God loves them all. Ok, so basically what i'm saying is that it's not about choosing the right book out of a bunch, God doesn't work that way. If a man (or women) really thinks deep inside they'll find God simply because that is how God works. He's not going to make getting into heaven difficult for someone, he actually wants people in heaven.

The question we must ask is not "What is the word of God?" but the question we must ask is "What is God?/ What is God like?" Because the Word of God isn't just a book, the Word of God is God himself. (see John Chapter 1)

"1. Scientists can look at other objects in space (planets, stars, and asteroids) and they can determine whether it is moving away from the earth or towads the earth (into the center of the universe or to the outer universe). The fact is most of the objects (about 95%) are moving away from the universe due to the force of inertia which they believe is the result of the Big Bang. However, some of the objects in space are moving towards the center of the universe (about 5%) and scientists don't know why. Check you're example number 1."

@Rickthestick
I cannot find anything in my library about 5% of the universes mass moving towards the center of the universe. There is some visible blue shift associated with gravitational forces, but besides these forces the entire universe is expanding. If you can come up with one I would love to see a link.

I live for science... Its my God!!!

I love to get into all the debate about science, laws of nature, etc. I believe that nature declares the glory of God, but the real driving force behind the strength of my faith is not merely head knowledge or logical reasonings to 'justify' my beliefs... It's my own deeply personal experiences, it's being eyewitness to many miracles, hearing testimony of eyewitnesses to miracles, seeing people's lives changed by God when nothing else could have made a difference. The more time I spend with believers who actually practice the Bible, the more proof I see that this is real.

To say that belief in God requires nothing but 'blind faith' does not match up to the Bible, which says that Jesus offered 'Many convincing proofs' that he was the son of God. One problem with the western church today is that we don't truly believe that we can do those things, so we don't try. When the church finally begins to operate in miracles again, like churches in many third world contries, some in western culture (I and others I know are eyewitnesses to this), and the early church in the book of acts, things will begin to change.

Even an athiest would have a hard time denying the existence God if God's people were out healing the sick on a daily basis in the streets. Christianity has died because it has been confined into the four walls of the 'church', which is NOT supposed to be a building, but a people. Christianity has become a stagnent lake, with nothing flowing in or out, rather than what it is meant to be, a river. The apathy and hypocricy of God's people does not prove that God doesn't exist any more than a child's rebellion towards his parents would prove his parents don't exist. God did not change, He is still the same and is waiting for a few willing people that are just crazy enough to change the world. He did it once with only 12 uneducated fishermen, he can certainly do it again.

@ footbag:

I'm going to have to find it again for you, it wasn't on the internet it was a book that i read once. Also just to clear things up, i'm not saying the universe isn't expanding and i'm not saying it is. In fact i couldn't really care much less. I was just saying why it was just a theory. Anyways I appreciate your love for science, i'll find that book.

@ Timmah!:

I agree with you. Except, wasn't one of the disciples a tax collector? Just want to get that out there. Anyway, the problem with miracles is mainly because most people don't believe, or have a lack of Faith, and the ones that are doing it are fake and blasphemous (talking about western cultures here). The fact is that most people don't have faith. Not even God's chosen people had enough faith. When Jesus came he said that a Centurion (A roman soldier, a gentile i assume) had more Faith than anybody in all of Israel. Faith is scarce, which is painfully true. 

And the Church is as you say. Not only is the Church confined to 4 walls, but it has become more of a whole new type of government. The Church became some kind of organization which is divided from the people and is caught up even in federal affairs. The problem with the Church is not new, however. It's just like how the Synagauge was by the time Christ came. And, when Christ comes again, I fear that it is how the Church will be. 

To sum things up, the proof of God is Faith, like i posted so many times before. The proof of God is also the Universe, and all that he has created. For even if a man believes in full blown evolution, there is proof of God within it. It is as I said, God is everywhere in and out of the Universe. God always exists in every human mind. If a Created Being was able to create a world (in thier finite minds) that was able to block out God, What would God be? He would be weaker that the mind that he created. And that is not God. Ok, so God is proven through Faith and through all of the Universe. 

 Back to Christianity, the problem with it is Christians. We forget who God is, we forget the teachings of Jesus, we are too caught up in searching for rewards and recieving things from God when we are supposed to sacrifice and give to all. Christians are starting to think that they are so Holy and mighty in the Lord, and so with thier pride they start to judge others, and instead of helping others, they condemn others. But that is the way of Satan if i dare say. Jesus Christ did not come to earth to glorify himself and make himself greater. Jesus came to serve the people. Christians are here to serve the people of the earth. Because we are not Holy or great. All fall short of the Glory of God. God does not need us. Christians should strive to be like Jesus, because Jesus is the light and the way. He is the example of perfect Humanity, perfect Christianity. His power came from his faith  in God, and our power comes from our faith in God. Jesus was just a man. All he did we can do and more. Jesus was just a man, who happened to be God, but he was still a man.

 I will welcome the challenge. If you want me to research the subjects and show you what I come up with, then so be it.

The roman census is the first subject that interested me, as I never questioned it in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius

Apparently there was a census, and there has been some debate as to when it actually occured. But the fact that it was recorded by the historian Josephus adds to the credibility that something like a census existed at the time.

I'll do more research and get to the other ones when I get more free time.

One question though:

If these men who lived in the 1st century made all these things up, why would they go through so much trouble being persecuted and even dying for what they knew was a fake? 

To say that belief in God requires nothing but 'blind faith' does not match up to the Bible, which says that Jesus offered 'Many convincing proofs' that he was the son of God. One problem with the western church today is that we don't truly believe that we can do those things, so we don't try.


so if I realy realy realy realy believe and want to fly i can?
if i realy realy believe I will grow 10 cm longer and I realy believe I could i would?


Even an athiest would have a hard time denying the existence God if God's people were out healing the sick on a daily basis in the streets

duh, thats just easy to say that would be the same that people who think aliens doesnt excist will eventually believe when they would see a greenshaped creature from outerspace.