| That Guy said: And to the second guy: (quote) By what standard are you saying that the bible "mantained continuity"? The old testiment is was thrown together by old Jewish redactors and is rittled many mistakes and contradictions...... (/quote) First of all, point out a specific mistake/contradiction that you find then we can talk. Second of all, the old testament records a lot of history, most of which has been confirmed by secular souces. The existence of Babylon, Assyria, Tyre, Egypt, and the like. So historically speaking, it is continuous. Tell me about the Roman census. As for prophecies, I would argue that all the prophecies have come true exactly as they were foretold. I would cite the fall of Judah to Babylon, the fall of Babylon itself, the fall of Persia, the rise and fall of Alexander the Great, and of course the 300+ prophesies surrounding Jesus. And there is an overall theme of the Bible. The first prophesy regarding the serpent and the woman, the various covenants, the things that Jesus taught, and the accounts of the apostles in the first century. Clearly there was a point to all of it. The plan was to (and is to) fix all the stuff that is messed up in this world. Jesus taught a lot about the "kingdom of God" and about the stuff it would do. And memo to all: I encourage everyone to stay away from blanket statements or generalizations if at all possible. Its ok if you believe that Bible is "riddled with mistakes" but its hard for someone to respond to that unless you have a specific point you want to discuss. Also we cannot lump "scientists" into one huge bloc of authority. Its really easy to do and I've probably been guity of lumping them all together myself. The truth is yes there is a community of scientists but no, they don't all 100% agree with everything. The same is true with "religion" as we cannot lump all the religions together as one bloc of authority. I know for a FACT that religions and churches and stuff don't 100% agree with everything. The fact of the matter is that we all have different viewpoints and opinions of the world. I am presenting to you my own viewpoint. I only urge you to understand where I'm coming from-- i'm not expecting you to accept it as absolute truth. |
That Guy,
Im sorry if my post sounded agressive or offensive, as it really was not meant to be in any way. If it offended you, I apologize. I myself dont like to make blanket statements, but in the world of biblical criticism it is usually taken as a given that the Bible has many contradictions and misstatements. I am not saying that these should disturb your faith, but the fact that they exist is of little doubt. (Even to believers)
First let me say again that you are right in your statement that "the old testament records a lot of history, most of which has been confirmed by secular souces." Although I know a few people that would argue with the "most" part of that, I will grant that many incidents in the bible do have some secular confirmation. (Unlike the Mormon books which have literally nothing)
On the subject of contradictions... well I really dont want to go down this road too far because it is really quite pedantic and makes me seem like some kind of vulgar man with too much time on this hands who has missed the point about the whole thing.. So lets just start with this one (there are many more):
How about the example of the resurrection of Jesus? Compare all the accounts of when the followers went to Jesus tomb. Who went to Jesus tomb? How many people went? What did they see? Who did they meet?
See Matthew and Luke. The disciples in Matthew are told "Go to Galilee and meet Jesus" and they go and meet Jesus. In Luke they are told "Dont leave Jerusalem" and they meet Jesus there. Which is it?
As for historical accuracy, ill give a few examples off the top of my head:
The Census
The empire wide Roman census that occured during Jesus birth has no secular support, and seems like a very strange thing for the Roman empire to do. It is not mentioned in any other text. Can you imagine each member of the entire Roman empire forced to go back to their homeland?(Why would they all have to go back to their place of birth? This makes no sense. We can guess why this story was made up though.)
The trial of Jesus
Just how do we know what happened during the trial of Jesus? His followers were not there. It is not as though the Pilate or the two priests gave accounts afterwards. Pilate most likely did not give an interview afterwards. So what we have of the conversations between Jesus and Pilate are most likely made up afterwards. Its kind of like the story you hear about the man who dreamed he was killed and then he died in real life at the same time.
Blame of the Jews
With the passage of time the bible places more and more blame on the Jews for the death of Jesus. In the earliest gospel, Mark, Pilate only askes the crowds once if he should release Jesus and then has him killed. Next is Luke. Pilate this time says Jesus is innocent but the Jews still want him killed. Matthew is next. Pilate again says Jesus is innocent, and even washes his hands of the blood of Jesus, and the crowd cries out "His blood be upon us and our children". Mind you this verse is only in Matthew. In John, the last and oldest gospel, Pilate tries 3 times to stop the execution, but the crowds would not have it. So Pilate actually gives him over to the crowds and they kill him.
Pilate becomes more innocent, and the Jews become more guilty with the passage of time in the Bible. This is because the early Christians began to fight more and more with the Jews of the time.
Each book has its own aim and purpose. One book stresses one thing, while another stresses something else. Each has its own account, which sometimes steps on or changes the story a little.
(On a side note: You dont really think a star actually led the three wise men do you? And that it stopped above a house to show them where Jesus was? How does a star do that exactly?)
Next you mentioned the prophecies:
"I would argue that all the prophecies have come true exactly as they were foretold."
"300+ prophesies surrounding Jesus."
The problem is that the story was written to make sure the prophacies were fullfilled and not the other way around. That is why the story of the census had to be made up to cover for the fact that Jesus was most probably from Nazareth. The same is true I believe with the geneology of Jesus in the Bible. It is changed so that it conformes to the Old Testament. I dont have as much of my sources on hand about this as I would like, but I guess I may have to dig them out later depending on how this goes.
A literal reading of the bible is not very productive. I suggest that when you are challenged by Atheists, you dont pick up your science and history books, but instead pick up your Kierkegaard.
@rickthestick2
You stated "Prove my Christianity wrong i dare you. "
Im sorry, but I dont know your Christianity, and I dont really want to prove it wrong. Just from that statment alone I can see you dont want to have a calm conversation so I dont know if will be productive to have a dialogue with you. You seem very agressive, and saying "my" Christianity to me is very strange and suspect. Why am I already an enemy to you?
On a side note, I reccomend to everyone to read the New Revised Standard Edition of the Bible, as it is famous for its good translations and many helpful notes and commentary. It is used in many University classrooms for a good reason.
I apologize for my long post. As to the question "Is there a God?" Arguments for and against to me are moot and almost meaningless. Lets say there is a God. Ok, now what do we do about it? We have to know what it wants or will do for us for this to make any difference in our life. That means we must also ask the question, is the Bible Koran or some other book the word of god or not.
