DuncanMcNeil said: You've read the bible, and believe the words in them are the words of your god (I'm assuming you are convinced that there is just one)?

Clearly no "God" ever said this words or sentences...

 

The bible is basically written by crazy old men which where not just silly but also anti-feminists...

 the christian church always manages to slip through this controverse debates by saying "you interpreted the bible the wrong way!" - No, we didn´t!

The bible SAYS men are better than women, it SAYS parents should kill their kids when they don´t listen to them, it SAYS you should kill all the people who are not your religion.

 I could go on like this for around 3 hours or so, what I try to say is the same: It says all of those things, but if you tell them your friends (or anyone else) they will start to defend the bible by saying: "If you tell me the bible contains anti - feminism you´re an anti-feminist!" Because they believe in the bible they expect you to believe in it, too and if you believe in it and it tells you anti-feminism, you have to be an anti-feminist... that´s ridiculous, I´d never say I´m any better than any woman out there, but they just keep saying it... the better answer would be: "err...hell yeah, that is true!" but people tend to behave like little children if they are proven wrong...

 

And again, why am I allowed to use peniccilin but no stem cells in medicine? This is just what some old, crazy men say and billions of people believe them... this is crazy.

nintendo_fanboy said: I'm also a Christian and therefore I also believe in god, but maybe it's more a sort of a "I don't see a good alternative" than a faith thing for me.

Louie said: DuncanMcNeil said: You've read the bible, and believe the words in them are the words of your god (I'm assuming you are convinced that there is just one)?   Clearly no "God" ever said this words or sentences...   The bible is basically written by crazy old men which where not just silly but also anti-feminists...  the christian church always manages to slip through this controverse debates by saying "you interpreted the bible the wrong way!" - No, we didn´t! The bible SAYS men are better than women, it SAYS parents should kill their kids when they don´t listen to them, it SAYS you should kill all the people who are not your religion.  I could go on like this for around 3 hours or so, what I try to say is the same: It says all of those things, but if you tell them your friends (or anyone else) they will start to defend the bible by saying: "If you tell me the bible contains anti - feminism you´re an anti-feminist!" Because they believe in the bible they expect you to believe in it, too and if you believe in it and it tells you anti-feminism, you have to be an anti-feminist... that´s ridiculous, I´d never say I´m any better than any woman out there, but they just keep saying it... the better answer would be: "err...hell yeah, that is true!" but people tend to behave like little children if they are proven wrong...   And again, why am I allowed to use peniccilin but no stem cells in medicine? This is just what some old, crazy men say and billions of people believe them... this is crazy.

Exactly.

Maybe I should tell something about my opinion;

Well, honestly I just cant understand some things in this world. Like, I dont know is it the right word, but "natures choice" is one of them. I mean, how can floras adapt to enviroment where them groves? I dont think that cranberry has made it's clammy leaves by itself - there has to be something bigger behind it.

The bible SAYS men are better than women, it SAYS parents should kill their kids when they don´t listen to them, it SAYS you should kill all the people who are not your religion.

Yes, it says so. But when you read the Bible, dont read it so blinbly. Ever heard about allegorys? Well, I think that Bible is just one big comparison.

DuncanMcNeil said: Keeper Garrett said: Being agnostic, I like my answer to be very simple. Humans cannot ever know/comprehend the existence of a being such as a "god". So it isn't something to worry about. In your statement you proclaim that you know that we cannot know whether a god exists? Obviously you have then decided, that despite someone's belief or disbelief in god, they must be wrong because you know that we cannot possibly know if god exists? Does this mean that the knowledge... for example.. that "god does not heal amputees" is irrelevant - or do we not in fact know if it is true (god healing or not healing amputees)? Does this mean the people who have claimed to see god, and hear god talk to them, are wrong? Or that they cannot possibly know if he exists, ergo, they cannot know if that voice is god or not? If you don't believe in any of the hateful gods, the ones that will kill you if you don't believe in them (the ones who also would thus - in their omnipotency be created the way they are by god) does that mean you know that they will not cause you to be in fire for eternity - or that you know that no one can know? Obviously you cannot believe in two opposing views, while simultaneously knowing that you cannot choose, which means you know you won't burn in hell (making a choice), or you know you will burn in hell but don't care (making a choice as well). Either way you've made quite a choice. Not worrying about it means you have made a choice. Either you're worried God will smite us all for being gay or accepting gay people (just some crazy thing the chrazies (Christian + Crazy = Chrazy) believe in) or you have a problem with Christian Soldiers killing gay people, and restricting the rights of gay people. You see - your determination in not making a hard (though in my opinion, easy) choice about the existance of God causes you to make hard decisions. You must know if slavery or racism is right or wrong, if you think they're wrong, you'd be disagreeing with Jesus himself. I don't know which is crazier - believing in god, or not knowing for sure. At the very least - you must admit the answer is far from simple.

 Well this i a very intelligent post i would say, and I respect your beliefs as a right, but your making a mistake many people make. All in all, no Christian would go out killing gay people, because simply that's not a Christian. They aren't folowing Christ period. Also, who in the world said that God would smite people? And where in a Christian should people want to smite or kill others for people gay, or accepting Gay people? Prove your point please, for i'd very much like to see what is wrong with my Faith. Also, how in the world is slavery and racism supported by Jesus? Do you  read the bible or do you nitpick? Your a very intelligent person indeed, but you have to know what your talking about before you bash things. You should know that when arguing about Christianity and using Christianity as a basis for your agruments that you should know Christianity inside and out.

 

"The bible SAYS men are better than women, it SAYS parents should kill their kids when they don´t listen to them, it SAYS you should kill all the people who are not your religion.

 I could go on like this for around 3 hours or so, what I try to say is the same: It says all of those things, but if you tell them your friends (or anyone else) they will start to defend the bible by saying: "If you tell me the bible contains anti - feminism you´re an anti-feminist!" Because they believe in the bible they expect you to believe in it, too and if you believe in it and it tells you anti-feminism, you have to be an anti-feminist... that´s ridiculous, I´d never say I´m any better than any woman out there, but they just keep saying it... the better answer would be: "err...hell yeah, that is true!" but people tend to behave like little children if they are proven wrong...

And again, why am I allowed to use peniccilin but no stem cells in medicine? This is just what some old, crazy men say and billions of people believe them... this is crazy." - Louie

 First of all, for your first paragraph, show me where you claim these things, for either, you have no idea how to seperate the old and new testament, or you aren't reading the bilbe or you are reading the bible and nitpicking. 

How is the bible anti-feminist? Prove that point to me and maybe i'll consider your logic as a thorn in Christianity. If not, i can just say i respect your beliefs.

What are you talking about? Who are these crazy old men your talking about? And the reason why christians don't want you to use stem-cells in medicine is #1 for the basic unwritten morals of humanity, and the main reason being that stem-cells come from embryos that were killed or dead, and in order to research stem cells a human youth must perish. However recently on the news some scientists found a way to use stem-cells from skin cells somehow from testing in rats. But other than that, you're acting quite crazy. You're going to have to prove arguments to argue with me, if that's your plan.

Typpis said: Maybe I should tell something about my opinion; Well, honestly I just cant understand some things in this world. Like, I dont know is it the right word, but "natures choice" is one of them. I mean, how can floras adapt to enviroment where them groves? I dont think that cranberry has made it's clammy leaves by itself - there has to be something bigger behind it. The bible SAYS men are better than women, it SAYS parents should kill their kids when they don´t listen to them, it SAYS you should kill all the people who are not your religion. Yes, it says so. But when you read the Bible, dont read it so blinbly. Ever heard about allegorys? Well, I think that Bible is just one big comparison.

 

People always tell that me that they don't understand how animals and plants adapt. They tell me they see a chair and know it is designed, and they see grass and see it is designed the same way. A watch works and it is designed - and so since most birds have wings to fly they must be designed, but this is just a way people explain things that they can't understand, after taking a biology course, or even reading a book, one can understand with ease how creatures adapt and develop. It seems normal to me after not understanding how nature develops a child or uneducated culture will explain things with magic - it is unreasonable for educated adults in today's society to explain these parts of nature with magic.

I'm certain most people have heard of allegories. Are you sure you mean to say the bible is simply an allegory? If you do, does that mean you're saying the whole things is trying to explain a point, or that all of it is? Because if all of it is, then none of it really matters then. And if parts of it are allegories which part of the book tells you which part is an allegory? I missed that part - you know when I actually read the bible. Because if there isn't a part that tells you what is purely a story and what is actually fact - then you must have figured that out from somewhere else. Also, I don't think a perfect god would create a book that many people have trouble understanding - but let's ignore simple logic.

I am agnostic. I simply do not know if god exists nor can I claim that he does or does not because I have no evidence of any kind to say so.

I do know some things for certain however and so do many people who have dedicated their life to science. First, evolution is real. It happens every day in many species throughout the planet and we have observed & documented its consequences directly. It is indeed very possible, if not near certain that we evolved from lower life. Although this is called a "scientific theory" the use of the word "theory" does not mean it is uncertain, it simply means we do not have all the details to connect the dots but we know it to be true not by faith but by science. Do not confuse scientific theory with the term "idea" or "possibility" like many faiths do. A good reference to anyone who want to really dig into evolution is 1st learn some ecology, then microbiology then specifically look at our own cells and compare them to bacteria (im not just talking about anatomy here but also behavior and structure) especially look at our embryological development. The other big step is to learn about sponges to see how it can all be possible. Then you just connect the dots and you will find that given the age of the earth, it is very possible that we evolved into what we are now.

I also know, from a philosophical point of view, that everything here may or may not even be real. All the laws and science might just be some program running on some computer somewhere and we are all simply characters in that world very much like our own video games albeit a much more complex simulation and we seem to have the ability to manipulate this word and we may even have free will... but im on the fense about that one since the mathematics are simply too complex for me to understand. As much as I dislike this idea, it is just as likely to be true as any "creationist" idea. Heck you might even be able to say that the owner of the computer we live in is god... but that may throw a pretty heavy wrench in some beliefs hehe

Where the 1st form of life came from is a more complex question but I also know something about that. No I cant tell you where it came from but I can say that almost any idea anyone has ever come up with is about as equally likely as any other since we have no evidence to deny or support any of them. So Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, pagans, athiests, scientologists, scientists, & Matrix fans rejoice... the probability is you are all equally correct about the origins of early life. I just dont like to spend my life gambling on odds that cannot even be comprehended so I am now agnostic... what I dont understand is why so many people are willing to throw away their lives on a gamble? Would you place your life on the line for a lottery ticket knowing that the odds are infinity to 1?

Edit: just wanted to add one last point (yes i love philosophical discussions). I was raised a Chrisitian as many other were however Christianity did not make me who I am. I have my morality and ethics and Christianity simply supported those idea which is why it stuck with me for so long. Once I realized that those two were not related and that I was this way long before I was even religious none of the religions made sense any more. The idea that people are moral because of religion is false. Religion can make someone moral out of fear however there are many people who are moral and ethical because that is simply their belief not because they are afraid of going to hell nor because some imaginary man told them so. Alternatively, there are many religious folks who make me scratch my head at their morals and ethics... George Bush anyone?

"People always tell that me that they don't understand how animals and plants adapt. They tell me they see a chair and know it is designed, and they see grass and see it is designed the same way. A watch works and it is designed - and so since most birds have wings to fly they must be designed, but this is just a way people explain things that they can't understand, after taking a biology course, or even reading a book, one can understand with ease how creatures adapt and develop. It seems normal to me after not understanding how nature develops a child or uneducated culture will explain things with magic - it is unreasonable for educated adults in today's society to explain these parts of nature with magic." - DuncanMcNeil

So this has nothing to do with Christianity right? Good, because it is common sense that things will adapt and change due to thier environment. The thing about it is, can things competly change thier species from one thing to another? That is what the thing is, and it isn't proven as a Fact. The way i see it, there are many different types of birds, mammals, reptiles, fish, amphibians, plants, fungi etc. but they still are what they are. They are changing due to thier changing evnironment, and that's adaptation. But, if you mean evolution as bacteria to man, that is just another idea. Also, you are of course not refering to Christianity when you say magic, i just want to make that clear with myself.

"I do know some things for certain however and so do many people who have dedicated their life to science.  First, evolution is real. It happens every day in many species throughout the planet and we have observed & documented its consequences directly. It is indeed very possible, if not near certain that we evolved from lower life. Although this is called a "scientific theory" the use of the word "theory" does not mean it is uncertain, it simply means we do not have all the details to connect the dots but we know it to be true not by faith but by science. Do not confuse scientific theory with the term "idea" or "possibility" like many faiths do. A good reference to anyone who want to really dig into evlotion is 1st learn some ecology, then microbiology then specifically look at our own cells and compare them to bacteria (im not just talking about anatomy here but also behavior and structure) especially look at our embryological development. The other big step is to learn about sponges to see how it can all be possible. Then you just connect the dots and you will find that given the age of the earth, it is very possible that we evolved into what we are now." - marc

Ok. In no way is Christianity against adaptation. In no way am I (not saying your refering to me) to dumb to understand what a theory is. In no way do i not know what ecology is. If you look at our genetic make up of other living things, of course you would find a similarity. Why? Because we all are made by God. But you don't belive that so i'll say something else. We all originate in the planet Earth. I don't understand this though. Your mind, think abuot it, think about your ability to think, think about how your brain works, and eventually your mind which can make an alternate world for yourself. Think about your mind and you start thinking about your soul. then start thinking about all the other intricasies of the human body (or matter of fact all forms of life).

Is it that people are afraid to accept the mysteries and wonders of God? Is it that htey just so can't believe God that they would accept full-Evolution without thinking truly and deeply about it? In no way is the length of the Earth a long time. A few billion years isn't going to change nature so drastically. You call me crazy for me and my reasons of Faith in God. But i call you foolish for you and your Facts of Evolution. 

Having only Science in your mind makes you weak. You eventually lose sight of what you are. But then, in what way could i make you understand? We'd argue forever to make you see the point. In what way could i make somebody regain the part of life that says I Am Not just another beast of the earth? Why is it that Humans are artificial? Why am i still arguing? i can't change you so whatever. Just don't bash.

rickthestick2 said: DuncanMcNeil said: Keeper Garrett said: Being agnostic, I like my answer to be very simple. Humans cannot ever know/comprehend the existence of a being such as a "god". So it isn't something to worry about. In your statement you proclaim that you know that we cannot know whether a god exists? Obviously you have then decided, that despite someone's belief or disbelief in god, they must be wrong because you know that we cannot possibly know if god exists? Does this mean that the knowledge... for example.. that "god does not heal amputees" is irrelevant - or do we not in fact know if it is true (god healing or not healing amputees)? Does this mean the people who have claimed to see god, and hear god talk to them, are wrong? Or that they cannot possibly know if he exists, ergo, they cannot know if that voice is god or not? If you don't believe in any of the hateful gods, the ones that will kill you if you don't believe in them (the ones who also would thus - in their omnipotency be created the way they are by god) does that mean you know that they will not cause you to be in fire for eternity - or that you know that no one can know? Obviously you cannot believe in two opposing views, while simultaneously knowing that you cannot choose, which means you know you won't burn in hell (making a choice), or you know you will burn in hell but don't care (making a choice as well). Either way you've made quite a choice. Not worrying about it means you have made a choice. Either you're worried God will smite us all for being gay or accepting gay people (just some crazy thing the chrazies (Christian + Crazy = Chrazy) believe in) or you have a problem with Christian Soldiers killing gay people, and restricting the rights of gay people. You see - your determination in not making a hard (though in my opinion, easy) choice about the existance of God causes you to make hard decisions. You must know if slavery or racism is right or wrong, if you think they're wrong, you'd be disagreeing with Jesus himself. I don't know which is crazier - believing in god, or not knowing for sure. At the very least - you must admit the answer is far from simple.  Well this i a very intelligent post i would say, and I respect your beliefs as a right, but your making a mistake many people make. All in all, no Christian would go out killing gay people, because simply that's not a Christian. They aren't folowing Christ period. Also, who in the world said that God would smite people? And where in a Christian should people want to smite or kill others for people gay, or accepting Gay people? Prove your point please, for i'd very much like to see what is wrong with my Faith. Also, how in the world is slavery and racism supported by Jesus? Do you  read the bible or do you nitpick? Your a very intelligent person indeed, but you have to know what your talking about before you bash things. You should know that when arguing about Christianity and using Christianity as a basis for your agruments that you should know Christianity inside and out.   "The bible SAYS men are better than women, it SAYS parents should kill their kids when they don´t listen to them, it SAYS you should kill all the people who are not your religion.  I could go on like this for around 3 hours or so, what I try to say is the same: It says all of those things, but if you tell them your friends (or anyone else) they will start to defend the bible by saying: "If you tell me the bible contains anti - feminism you´re an anti-feminist!" Because they believe in the bible they expect you to believe in it, too and if you believe in it and it tells you anti-feminism, you have to be an anti-feminist... that´s ridiculous, I´d never say I´m any better than any woman out there, but they just keep saying it... the better answer would be: "err...hell yeah, that is true!" but people tend to behave like little children if they are proven wrong... And again, why am I allowed to use peniccilin but no stem cells in medicine? This is just what some old, crazy men say and billions of people believe them... this is crazy." - Louie  First of all, for your first paragraph, show me where you claim these things, for either, you have no idea how to seperate the old and new testament, or you aren't reading the bilbe or you are reading the bible and nitpicking.  How is the bible anti-feminist? Prove that point to me and maybe i'll consider your logic as a thorn in Christianity. If not, i can just say i respect your beliefs. What are you talking about? Who are these crazy old men your talking about? And the reason why christians don't want you to use stem-cells in medicine is #1 for the basic unwritten morals of humanity, and the main reason being that stem-cells come from embryos that were killed or dead, and in order to research stem cells a human youth must perish. However recently on the news some scientists found a way to use stem-cells from skin cells somehow from testing in rats. But other than that, you're acting quite crazy. You're going to have to prove arguments to argue with me, if that's your plan. "If Jesus was real, and furthermore if he really was god, his beliefs are messed up for being a perfect being - refusing to heal people because they're not Jewish, killing trees for no reason. If Jesus was a real person that existed - you cannot blame him for the countless deaths in his name. But if Jesus was real and a god (the god) you can certainly blame him for these deaths." - DuncaMcNeil What? Jesus all of a sudden didn't exsit? This shows your complete lack of understanding i'm sorry. You seem quite ignorant to me. First of all, who did Jesus not heal for not being Jewish?, and "Killing Trees for No Reason"? I'm getting sort of upset about what your talking about, because you're making no sense, at all. how would you blame him death? Death comes from sin, death is intwined with all living things. Why? Because we aren't slaves and wwe have free will. What is better, to have slaves, or to have free men? Anyways, i respect your beliefs, but in no way do i approve of them.

rickthestick2 said:

So this has nothing to do with Christianity right? Good, because it is common sense that things will adapt and change due to thier environment. The thing about it is, can things competly change thier species from one thing to another? That is what the thing is, and it isn't proven as a Fact. The way i see it, there are many different types of birds, mammals, reptiles, fish, amphibians, plants, fungi etc. but they still are what they are. They are changing due to thier changing evnironment, and that's adaptation. But, if you mean evolution as bacteria to man, that is just another idea. Also, you are of course not refering to Christianity when you say magic, i just want to make that clear with myself.

Actually sir, the above is indeed a proven fact. We have documented the rise of new species with completely new features from parent species that are 100% incompatible in almost every way with their ancestors. We have seen this not only morphologically like in the Galapogos island birds but also in DNA. Furthermore, we ourselves, come from a ancestral species that is now extinct and there were other forms of "humans" that were strikingly different from us at different points in time as shown by fossile records. There is proof that these sister lineages were indeed intelligent but we simply do not know why they went extinct however some of them did indeed look like other more "primal" mammals such as apes but they were not apes and they used tools.

If you look at our genetic make up of other living things, of course you would find a similarity. Why? Because we all are made by God. But you don't belive that so i'll say something else. We all originate in the planet Earth. I don't understand this though. Your mind, think abuot it, think about your ability to think, think about how your brain works, and eventually your mind which can make an alternate world for yourself. Think about your mind and you start thinking about your soul. then start thinking about all the other intricasies of the human body (or matter of fact all forms of life).

The above makes no sense sir. I am not a gambling man and I believe that gambling is in itself a very bad (perhaps even evil) habit. The more likely scenario regarding why we are similar is because we evolved. Also, when I think about my brain the idea of soul never even enters my mind. This is something that is taught in religion as a means of staying alive after death because people are so afraid of death. I dont want to die any more than anyone else but I am not going to cheapen my life by believing in something out of that fear. There is no such thing as a "soul." This is a human creation to make ourselves feel better about ourselves. Our minds are a result of evolution to protect our bodies. Simple as that. People make the mistake of thinking that our bodies are here to protect us (our minds or our souls)... this is not true. It is the other way around and has been in all documented life. The existence of brain and senses is to keep our bodies alive and healthy which is where our innate reflexes come from. We just happen to have a much higher brain function and it is that which is helping us thrive in the world but as I said above, other human species were not so lucky for whatever reason. We even retain many other odd reflexes that make no sense to have whatsoever. Have you ever heard of the "divers reflex?" This reflex comes from the fact that we were derived from animals that are marine because we sure as hell dont have any use for it ourselves but it is something very important to sea animals so explain to me why this is in our design? Did God just want to cut corners and left that in there out of laziness? Did he run out of time? Or maybe he wanted us to live underwater then changed his mind mid design? Or wait.. maybe one day all humans will become marine and we will all live under the sea with Shamu the little mermaid... we are royally screwed if thats the case however.

Is it that people are afraid to accept the mysteries and wonders of God? Is it that htey just so can't believe God that they would accept full-Evolution without thinking truly and deeply about it? In no way is the length of the Earth a long time. A few billion years isn't going to change nature so drastically. You call me crazy for me and my reasons of Faith in God. But i call you foolish for you and your Facts of Evolution.

Once again, this makes no sense. People dont believe in god precisely because they are not afraid of what will happen after death and/or if they are like me they simply believe in that which is more more likely to be true thus using the brains that we are given. People believe in God becuase they are afraid of death for the most part, and want to live forever even after death. What would be the up side to not believing? Nothing at all. In fact I can say that having no religion is much harder than having one because with religion you can justify almost anything without reason as many people do. God says so. The bible told me so. Its Gods will. The devil did it. God works in mysterious ways... If you didnt believe, all these things couldnt be used any more and you have to live with the grim belief that at death... nothing happens. This is a very hard thing to do while maintaining strong ethics and morality.

I didnt say the age of the earth is a long time but I did say that it is old enough to support evolution. Besides... how the heck can you say a few billion years isnt a long time? We live for about 80 ourselves... How can we possible even comprehend what a billion years of life would be like? Hell we can barely even comprehend the fact that one day California will be an island off the coast of Australia and that only takes a hundred thousand years... just a blip on the radar in comparison to earths age.

Having only Science in your mind makes you weak. You eventually lose sight of what you are. But then, in what way could i make you understand? We'd argue forever to make you see the point. In what way could i make somebody regain the part of life that says I Am Not just another beast of the earth? Why is it that Humans are artificial? Why am i still arguing? i can't change you so whatever. Just don't bash.

I dont recall bashing anyone and conversly look at my previous paragraph. If anything, the religious is the one who took the easy path out by not having to face any sort of reality and bypassing rigorous studies but right here and now I will present to you a challenge since you brought it up (of which I am sure you will find a means out of). The same one I presented to a priest years ago. If you can find me one shred of evidence (worthwhile not some dehydrated nun with crystalized tears or statues bleeding) of any truth in creationism or even the existence of a God I will (as I have promised from the day I left) return to my old faith happily and gladly... To tell the truth, not a day goes by where I wish I can find something but it just isnt there. I actually went to Austrialia once because the priest said some kind of holy worker there that might be able to help me... we know how that turned out. He basically sat down and tried the same scare tactics as always then tried to make me emotional by "praying for my soul." That very instant is when I lost my faith. Anyway, I presented you with evidence for evolution and rise of species so can you do the same for your beliefs?