"The Universal Law of Gravitation or the Law of Gravity has been proven and observed.  Gravity is relative to mass.  We have calculated and confirmed the effects of gravity on other planets.  We have used this to slingshot probes into deep space.  We have also landed on the moon.  Or have we? :)

I don't think any scientist would or should attempt to prove or disprove the existance of God."  

As for the Gravity thing, I understand that, but it was (don't know if it still is) a theory that i svery limited based on our limited exploration of the Universe.  And as for the scientist part, that's exactly how i feel. But then you have some scientists stating/implying that belief in God is foolish. That's crossing the line. 

 

rickthestick2 said:  "The Universal Law of Gravitation or the Law of Gravity has been proven and observed.  Gravity is relative to mass.  We have calculated and confirmed the effects of gravity on other planets.  We have used this to slingshot probes into deep space.  We have also landed on the moon.  Or have we? :) I don't think any scientist would or should attempt to prove or disprove the existance of God."   As for the Gravity thing, I understand that, but it was (don't know if it still is) a theory that i svery limited based on our limited exploration of the Universe.  And as for the scientist part, that's exactly how i feel. But then you have some scientists stating/implying that belief in God is foolish. That's crossing the line.

And claiming that scientist are ignorant and want to lead the world astray isn't ignorant? Anyway, you say "theory" in the context most people use it in, which isn't the same as its use in science. I guess you're just as ignorant about science as scientist are about "nescience". 

Regarding science waging a "war" on religion, what about the other way around? Many religious groups have tried to remove evolution from school, with some going so far as to get ID taught supplementary or exclusivly.

@wareagle; Evolution isn't a religion, despite what you may wish.

I've honestly never heard of any scientist saying Humans are getting smarter due to evolution. There have been studies on current brain evolution, but no one has gone so far to claim that this has made us smarter for a plethora of reasons, not least of which is how difficult it is to get measurements of a persons intelligence. However, changes in genes that regulate the brain and its growth are solid pieces of evidence, and these exist. I think its funny that just because we're passing on knowledge, this somehow excludes brain evolution from making people more intelligent(this is only hypothetical since there is no reliable proof that intelligence has been increasing, dont think I'm jumping to faith based conclusions).

Also of interest is how peoples average height has been steadily increasing over the past few hundred years. Why? Height is something desirable in a mate, and thats natural selection my friend.

"And claiming that scientist are ignorant and want to lead the world astray isn't ignorant? Anyway, you say "theory" in the context most people use it in, which isn't the same as its use in science. I guess you're just as ignorant about science as scientist are about "nescience". 

Regarding science waging a "war" on religion, what about the other way around? Many religious groups have tried to remove evolution from school, with some going so far as to get ID taught supplementary or exclusivly." - sieanr

 I'm not sure you understood what i was saying, so i don't inderstand what you are talking about. What do you mean by leading the world astray? And what are you talking about with "theory"? And ignorance isn't the lack of knowledge in facts man, rather its the complete disregard for something for a dumb reason, or a dumb way of thinking about something for no reason. When i say scientists are ignorant (which i'm sorry for saying "not all scientists") i mean that they disregard anything that isn't of what they see. They disregard all of  my "Nescience"  for no reason. Science doesn't have to be that way, but because of people it is. Most intellectual concepts (sciences and religions) aren't the cause of problems. It's the people within them who cause problems. Hope that helps. 

Like i said before, when i said Science was attacking Christianity, it is all about the people. And yes you are quite right that some religious groups attack Science, am I saying that that is right? No, in fact i never mentioned it. But when someone (anyone) wrongfully attacks Science or Religion i'll speak up against it. So all in all, what's your point? 

"I'm an atheist myself, and in my opinion, religion is just a hope and temporary fill-in until we discover the truth about the world and beyond. " - Cursayer2

That's your problem. You confuse Hope and Faith. You may not understand what Faith is (if you did you'd never bring up this point) so you compare it to what you use that is closest to the concept of Faith which is Hope. But that's the mistake people make. Hope is something you long for that you do not know much about, or how it will get here, but Faith is something you know. Faith is the spiritual form of the physical word: Fact. As for your "truth about the world and beyond", how would that ever remove spirituality? Better yet, what truth is there about the world and beyond? Searching for that answer is like searching for the answer to the question "What is the truth behind the tree?" It makes no sense to me. But whatever. I respect your beliefs at the very least.

rickthestick2 said: "I'm an atheist myself, and in my opinion, religion is just a hope and temporary fill-in until we discover the truth about the world and beyond. " - Cursayer2 I agree with this! That's your problem. You confuse Hope and Faith. You may not understand what Faith is (if you did you'd never bring up this point) so you compare it to what you use that is closest to the concept of Faith which is Hope. But that's the mistake people make. Hope is something you long for that you do not know much about, or how it will get here, but Faith is something you know. Faith is the spiritual form of the physical word: Fact. As for your "truth about the world and beyond", how would that ever remove spirituality? Better yet, what truth is there about the world and beyond? Searching for that answer is like searching for the answer to the question "What is the truth behind the tree?" It makes no sense to me. But whatever. I respect your beliefs at the very least. Facts aren't just words coming from anywho's mouth... I see no proof in your Faith thing and I see no proof that there is a God. People in history has always used the word "God" to explain things they can't understand/don't know. There are still many mysteries in the Universe but it doesn't mean that a Divinity is behind it. People used to belive the earth was flat and no one questionned it until someone found out it wasn't. People used to belive the Earth was only 8000 yrs old or so and it isn't because there are proofs, REAL facts discovered by scientists. If someone can proof me with valid and solid facts that a God exists, I may consider changing idea. But stuff like Faith aren't facts, they're mere delusions created by humans. I can't remember who, but someone once said that God is the human's imaginairy friend...

 

If there was a reset button on the universe can anyone guarantee me that humans or god for that matter would exist every single time after every reset?

Nope no God for me.....I don't need one....

"Because the scientists cannot understand Nescience, they disregard it as true, and search for ways to purge it from common knowledge calling whatever they think up as truth and everything else childish fantasies. Eventually the lead the world to a souless state that cannot understand the very simplest of all remedial miracles, which is Faith. "

Minus the typo, thats not claiming science is going to lead the world to ruination?

Most people who have a poor grasp of science tend to conclude that theory=unproven/unsupported. Theory in the context of science is something that explains an occurence and is supported by evidence and experiment. You said gravity was a theory in a way that indicated it to be "untrue", or atleast not completly valid. This is a very common misunderstanding of science, usually by people who are ignorant with regards to science, which leads me to...

Really? From the Oxford American Dictionary; Lack of knowledge or information, noun

But ignorance is not meant in a derogatory light, like where I used it above, just a lack of understanding.



Thats my point. Since you never mentioned it, you are making the discussion one sided - you are weighting things in your favor. Take this line in tandem with you assumption that science will lead to meaningless, "soulless" lives and it seems as though you have it out for all men in white labcoats.

Either way, we do agree that people manipulate both science and religion for their own good. But science is about what is observable, imperical and provable. Changing science to include your nescience, as you suggest they are not mutally exclusive, would fundamentally change the core values of science. What I think you fail to realise is that science and religion somehow preclude one another from existing, yet they do not. They tackle different sujects, and thats where they should remain. Conflict only arises when one treads on the others foot. Religion has no place explaining the origins of man as that is in the realm of observable fact, but this issue is brought up time and time again. Science tries to explain the origins of man, but it has never wholly discounted the possibilty of a higher being. Virtually every scientist, even vehement evolutionist Rickard Dawkins, admit that there could be a higher power.

BTW: getting back to gravity - using telescopes, we can view stars trillons of lightyears away. Through some very accurate measurments, we can detect the effects of gravity on these far away galaxies and stars. Through all of this, there has not been one sigle deviation from our mathematical model of gravity. The fact that there could be evidence to the contrary does nothing to dispel the theory, since such thinking is logical fallacy.

I have faith, not hope, that this will help you better understand my point.

Chehansen said: Nope no God for me.....I don't need one....

Says the created to the Creator.

And the Creator smiles and shakes his head.

(Imagining that there is a God is a prerequisite to that little scenario, but just a funny thought. I'm not in the mood to add any further to the actual debate.)

Well, I think the religious here should respect the ones who aren't... Because yes, their religion is sooooooooo tolerant...

But you know, what I can read here is they are calling us ignorants...

This is NOT respect.

You believe in god, ok. I won't call you ignorant. I RESPECT your opinion. I don't call you a fool for believing in something I don't believe. Calling us ignorants when you have no exit isn't a tolerant attitude precisely. Sadly, this is very common.

Maybe we are ignorants, but at least we try to understand the world. If not, we will be still throwing spears to eat elephant meat.

 

I think of god as an imagination of men, who like to see themselves as something more. We are like other animals... seing us as superior beings is a common egoccentric human reaction. ¿Do you think dogs believe in god?.

In my opinion, there's no soul at all. Yeah, sometimes people see extrange things (my mother says she has seen a ghost of my grandmother... who died in her arms). But these are mental tricks. If you are convinced of something, you can make it true (at least for you). Our mind is really more powerful than we know, more more more much. Of course there are things we can't see, but our vision of the world is really limitated. Of course there would be things we can't explain, but that in any case proves the existence of god. At least for me, maybe he or she exists and laughs at me, or at you, because improving our understanding of the world, maybe we are aproaching to him. Because, if he created moral rules, ¿why not create a world based on rules?... those one are the ones we try to comprehend.

 

For example. A monkey has a lighter in his hands. Accidentally he lights it up, and appears fire. To him, this is nothing more than magic, supernatural, god-like. He would be back to his pack (I suppose is this word in english, I mean, the rest of the monkeys) and he'll show the lighter. If he manages to lighten it up another time, the rest of the monkeys will fear him, and he will probably become more atractive to the female monkeys and gain some position in the pack (these type of experiments had been realised a lot of times). For monkeys, this is magic. For us, it's logical. Normal.

I think humans are not that far from the monkey...

 

Talking about evolution:

Evolution is fact. But, do you really know what evolution is? Is a sucession of mutations. No more, no less. The 99.99999% of mutations are not precisely good. And those which do well are usually really subtle (as for example being inmune to a disease), but other could be a great improvement, as a "deformed" back that lets you walk with only two feet.

 

Many are confusing this with natural selection. (Besides, natural selection and mutations work together). So, if you are strong because you go to the gym everyday, your children may be weak (as all you do in your life does not affect your ADN). That's not really evolution, it's more like adaptation.

Yes, our brains are becoming bigger... But this is natural selection... Usually smart ones have more money, ande they survive longer. Of course, this "selection" could be really bad. In fact, medical improvments are anhilitaing our species, as we are becoming weaker (the survive of all is an abherration of nature).

 

Talking about gravity:

A group of investigators are know measuring the size & speed of gravitational waves. I guess in a year or two they would have something. Seems a strange thing, but it's important, not only to prove definitely the law of gravity,but to explain things we don't know, for example: If the sun dissapeared... hoy much time will it pass until we percieve it? This is, we know it would shine for around 25hours (we are 25 light-hours to the sun). But, how much time would earth follow an orbit centered in a non-existant sun? (as it seems lightspeed can't be surpassed, or maybe it can and we will be on a new blockade).

 

 

I just want to say that when I saw the whole "IS there a god?" question on the homepage of the top VG sales site on the web, I was sure that we were going to se a ban fest. I'm very glad it stayed respectful, and no matter which side of the issue you are on, your argument is stronger after this post. Great post!!!