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Darc Requiem said:
PlagueOfLocust said:
Darc Requiem said:
PlagueOfLocust said:
Christian here, non-denominational. Yes, I believe in God.

@Darc Requiem - Don't buy into the load that the Bible is flawed from multiple translations. There are no different interpretations snuck into the text between translations; the only thing lost/added in translation is connotations. Going back to the Greek translation for some words can help shed light on certain ideas, but nothing is altered to trick anyone. In fact, the Bible, compared to other historical documents we accept without a second thought, is more historically valid than any other historical text (based on how accurate it has shown itself to be with the events catalogued within, and how soon after the events the texts were written.) But you won't hear that from your friendly neighborhood college professor.

If you believe something is out there (and why not, that strange feeling seems to be imprinted on our souls), the Bible is really the most compelling description of what it may be. Faith is the key word here, though; assuming that the only truth we can really rely on is that which we can see is such a modern, short sighted idea. Science is not the be-all and end-all of our world, or else we'd have no use for philosophy or any other fields of study.

That defies logic. I can write something down right now. I could line up 100 people having each person recopy it and pass it down. By the time it gets to last person it will barely resemble my original thoughts. Not to mention that a good deal of the Bible was written down after the fact. Things weren't written as they occurred. In some cases it was decades after.

I disagree with your assertions about Christianity, MrStickball. While the progenitors of the religion were peaceful its followers have not been for the most part. Using your logic, I'd say 90% or more of Christians aren't really Christians. Although the same could be said for virtually all religions. Religions start off meaning well but they are more about controlling people than spreading beliefs contained in which ever holy tome is its source. People may not fear secular law but threaten them with eternal damnation and they are a lot easier to manipulate.

You seem to reference the Crusades in your post. The Crusades were a huge unnecessary blood bath started by Christians in Europe. Unfortunately the Christians and Jews of Jersusalem, who had nothing do with the Crusades, ended up being slaughtered and left without homes because of it. Christianity was spread largely by missionaries taking advantage of the "savage" peoples that were conquered and subjugated during Imperialism. When your land is being taken, your people killed, the offer of "salvation" would be quite tempting.

 


You could line up 100 what to get that result, monkeys? Anyone with half a brain can copy down something word for word. Your analogy only works when the message is passed on verbally. And if you think the Bible had an entirely different message at first and got warped through the translation of careless people, what the hell are the chances that the Bible would still be as coherent as it is? There would be no defending the Bible at all if it was as flawed as you're suggesting it is due to translation. Would so many people be so moved by an incoherent text?

Again, notice that I'd never have to argue that the message of any other book translated between languages got warped beyond its original meaning. No other book seems to scare people based solely on its message the way the Bible does, which is funny since it's a message of peace and love. That's because, if the Bible is true, it changes everything - and for some reason it's frighteningly difficult to disprove.

And the Crusades (and other violence done by "Christians") is a paper-thin argument against Christianity; you can't point out the actions of certain Christians that don't follow the lessons of the Bible and then suggest that the Bible causes war. And if religion causes war, maybe that's because knowing the true meaning of life is just that important. (I would suggest that having a different religion, just like having a different skin tone or different anything, is another excuse for one group to hate another. That doesn't make religion bad; it makes prejudice bad, and prejudice is not a Bible-lesson.)

Lastly, don't get mad at people trying to share the Bible with you. Gee, what assholes; they care about your soul.

Edit - Oh, and you mention that a good deal of the Bible was written down after the fact. Uh... duh? What, if it's not a journal someone wrote in every night you don't accept it? Most historical texts are written after the fact; the Bible is written more closely following the events within it than most other historical texts, so if anything it's more reliable.


First of all I was not arguing against Christianity. I simply stating, factually, that Christianity isn't immune to violence as well. Its not the peaceful religion, in practice, that MrStickBall as making it out to be. The Crusades was just a commonly known example which is why I choose it. Are you contending that the Crusades weren't started by European Christians? A lot things work in theory but not in practice. Religion is just one of those things. People defend their religion with a fervor not seen on many other issues. Religious leaders use that loyalty to in their best interests. Not in the interest of the religions followers. I'm not even going to go into the different factions of Christianity that were formed for inane reasons or because of simple disagreements.

As for the accuracy of the Bible, you know what I'm wrong in all the thousands of years of reprinting and retranslation the Bible is exactly the way it was when first copied down. You are right. Besides we all know people live their lives by a random persons personal journal. I mean people die over personal journals everyday right? They fight over the meaning of the passage "It took a while for me to go to the store today" in a personal journal.  I mean even if I wrote my journal discussing my summer vaction from my junior year of High School last week, people would fly of the handle and get offended at the idea that it wasn't word for word accurate despite being written 11 years after the fact.


Our god, is a tolerant god, and does not want anything spread through, violence, if it is, it is by the hands of man, as we have free will, and are responsible ourselves.

We only have 2 emotions love, and fear, what ever we do are based off of one or the other. Buddhists have never waged war, I appreciate their beiliefs, but am not buddhist either.



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wareagle372 said:
I am a Christian as I said before. I just want to tell you all. No one will never have enough evidence to prove whose religion is right. That is why we have to have faith that our religion is right. Oh, and all of you who said that Christians have killed lots of people, I am afraid that is true. About 1500 years ago, he Catholics corrupted the word of God to gain personal profits, and 800 years ago. The Protestants learned the corruption of the church and seperated from the church. The Catholics got pissed and killed many Protestants, but eventually the Protestants translated the Bible into English(which was prohibited by the catholic church because the catholic because only the priest and few others knew how to read in Latin). This does not mean that Christianity is evil, it means that men corrupt the truth for self-benefits

You said it, the big word...............................TRANSLATED

 

The original was written in Hebrew which God in Hebrew is Elohim, not GOD, anyway it means those who came from the sky.

I could disect the bible and make all christians on this site hate me for ..........nevermind I wont go into it.

I will say this, there are false rleigions, and you would be surprised which ones are false...........Hint:Fatima is a lie, and I use to be Catholic. But there are more religions than that......I will end it there, about 15+ people wanted info on my beliefs and if they researched and appreciated it, thanks you in advance, if not that is ok too!

Bottom line, everyone needs to be tolerant. God created, gays, handicapped lepers, etc,. etc.



Well... (sorry for my english)

I would like to write sooo much about this topic...

 

I am somekind of atheist, I don't belive in any great power or such things. Still, I think there are many things that science has not touched yet. For me, religions cover the weakness of human mind. Because is really hard sometimes when you do not believe in anything, really hard. It's hard to believe that when you'd die, there would be nothing, in fact, it causes me great pain when I think seriously about it. But at least, when I die, I won't notice that, as I will be pretty dead xD. I really would like to actually belive in some god, or anything but cold-science only, but i can't (the story about the bible is what someone has posted before: if you tell someone who tells someone who tells somen... the last one has a different story)

But yeah, life can be created (they've posted it, that history about the aminoacids). So, life it's actually a "definition". If you know something about viruses, the frontier between life and death becomes to blur significatively. Life is no more than a system or union of things. In fact, we all are small ecosystems. We demominate life that one s based in carbon, but I think this is a narrow vision of reality.

The story about suicides is pretty logical. Life is completely senseless. The existence itself is senseless. What's more, if you believe in any religion, immortality is completely senseless. Imagine you life for the rest of the eternity... It would be horrible (well, firstly it'd be incredibly boring). It's even more hard to believe than there's nothing after life. And, If you're religion does not belive in immortality, it's the same story as the atheists.

 

I said in my first paragraph that I think that sciece has to evolve so much because I belive there's much more than our eyes can see or our ears can listen (and I'm not talking about the colors we don't see or the frequencies we can't hear). Some psycologists have investigated that thing of the tunnel and the light when someone is between death and life. It seems it like we had like a common inteligence that guides us all, as in the ants (one ant alone will irremediably die, but as you add more friends to the first, the seem to be more and more intelligent and organised). I was clinically dead for 5 minutes when I was young so I'm really interested in this topic (clinically dead is no pulse, no respiration, nothing but cerebral death)

 

One physical note: There are particles that go to the past, i. e., tachyons (I think this is the word in English). Relativist theories demostrate that any particle beyond lightspeed move in time in the oppositte direction in that we move. Thats the primarily reason why the ligthspeed is a constant, is the frontier (I can't find a word, sorry for my english), the "zero" in the "axis of time" between "the go to the future" and "go to the past". This particles have been detected in nuclear centrals. They can´t be seen phisically ( In fact, if we believe in our hated friend heisenberg, it's impossible in any way that we know where are they), but they emit a glow (I don't remember the specific name of it). It has been demostrated that their minimum speed is lightspeed (it more like a limit, an asintothe (once more, i don't know the english word). So well, they open more and more questions (wether they go ahead or back in time).

Quatum theory just don't say anything about them, so it's like an acceptance I suppose (and well, since it is the most advanced human theory, this is kind of important). Scientifically speaking, we are just non-linear time functions, the same we have in mathematics in fuction of x, y and z axis (or the equation of a wave in n-dimensions for example)



A Christian is those who follow the Christ. Christ Is the Prince of Peace. A Christian who fights out of sin is not a Christian at all. Why? Because it is at that point they no longer follow the Christ. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. So how can a mass killing be blamed on Christians? It is basic Christianity that teaches us not to do such acts, leaving us with one explaination. Those who were "Christians" or called themselves Christian knew not what a Christian was, or manipulated the world into thinking that they were Christians for their own sinful desires.

Most of the Crusaders could not read. Therefore most of the Crusaders listened to the ones who could read, and they were the monks and the Pope who were at those times, gastly corrupt. The Crusaders thought they were holy and followed the will of whom they thought was God. They were lied to, and they would never know. It was the Rennaisance  the revived reading and learning by Johannes Gutenburg's Printing Press, and led to the Protestant Reformation, led mainly by Martin Luther and his 95-Thesis. The Protestants found practices in the Catholic Church that were unbiblical, and when they spoke up, they were excommunicated. Eventually with the help of the Printing Press, the Protestants were able to get the Bible out throughout the rest of Europe in the English language, which eventually led to a war between the Protestants and Catholics. Just some bit of History.

Basically what i'm trying to say is that mass killing isn't on fault of Christianity, but it is at fault in people.  If people would read the Bible for themselves more, maybe "Christians" would be more like the Christians who follow the Christ.



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CameronHall1 said:
Ofcourse theres a GOD and Jesus is the Son Of God.

 have you got any evidence for the existance of god? 



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One more thing,

 

I will always support any religion is based on repect and equallity among individuals, what I really hate is someone who forces me (or ties to convince me) to believe in something I don't belive, as I don't try to convert anyone who believes in any god. In fact, I have many religious friends, and the majority of them don't believe in the "church" as an entity. I mean, they believe in god and holy scriptures, but not in what Ratzinger says (I'm from spain, so many people is catholic, but church here is extremely politizised).

 

In fact, the ideas of many religions are really noble, and world would be better if we truly followed those rules. They are "moral codes" that I support (I'm an atheist, but I don't need to believe in god to know that kill someone, steal or be disrespectful to anyone is horrible).

 

But we are humans, and it's like politics, there are many errors. Church is controlled by people (When I refer to church it'd be apliable to other religions, even if the y have no "church"), and us, people, are far form perfect. That's were the equation fails.

Many theories seem to be good but fail in practice, for example communism (for in communist countries the gap between wealth and poverty is huge... so, there is no communism). Most ideologies think in humanity as if we were good (like communism), but thats not true, "man is wolf to man". That's why capitalism win the war to communism, because capitalism does not need "good people" to work out, it needs motivated people. It would be much better if we were that good though. 



Darc Requiem said:
PlagueOfLocust said:

You could line up 100 what to get that result, monkeys? Anyone with half a brain can copy down something word for word. Your analogy only works when the message is passed on verbally. And if you think the Bible had an entirely different message at first and got warped through the translation of careless people, what the hell are the chances that the Bible would still be as coherent as it is? There would be no defending the Bible at all if it was as flawed as you're suggesting it is due to translation. Would so many people be so moved by an incoherent text?

Again, notice that I'd never have to argue that the message of any other book translated between languages got warped beyond its original meaning. No other book seems to scare people based solely on its message the way the Bible does, which is funny since it's a message of peace and love. That's because, if the Bible is true, it changes everything - and for some reason it's frighteningly difficult to disprove.

And the Crusades (and other violence done by "Christians") is a paper-thin argument against Christianity; you can't point out the actions of certain Christians that don't follow the lessons of the Bible and then suggest that the Bible causes war. And if religion causes war, maybe that's because knowing the true meaning of life is just that important. (I would suggest that having a different religion, just like having a different skin tone or different anything, is another excuse for one group to hate another. That doesn't make religion bad; it makes prejudice bad, and prejudice is not a Bible-lesson.)

Lastly, don't get mad at people trying to share the Bible with you. Gee, what assholes; they care about your soul.

Edit - Oh, and you mention that a good deal of the Bible was written down after the fact. Uh... duh? What, if it's not a journal someone wrote in every night you don't accept it? Most historical texts are written after the fact; the Bible is written more closely following the events within it than most other historical texts, so if anything it's more reliable.


First of all I was not arguing against Christianity. I simply stating, factually, that Christianity isn't immune to violence as well. Its not the peaceful religion, in practice, that MrStickBall as making it out to be. The Crusades was just a commonly known example which is why I choose it. Are you contending that the Crusades weren't started by European Christians? A lot things work in theory but not in practice. Religion is just one of those things. People defend their religion with a fervor not seen on many other issues. Religious leaders use that loyalty to in their best interests. Not in the interest of the religions followers. I'm not even going to go into the different factions of Christianity that were formed for inane reasons or because of simple disagreements.

As for the accuracy of the Bible, you know what I'm wrong in all the thousands of years of reprinting and retranslation the Bible is exactly the way it was when first copied down. You are right. Besides we all know people live their lives by a random persons personal journal. I mean people die over personal journals everyday right? They fight over the meaning of the passage "It took a while for me to go to the store today" in a personal journal.  I mean even if I wrote my journal discussing my summer vaction from my junior year of High School last week, people would fly of the handle and get offended at the idea that it wasn't word for word accurate despite being written 11 years after the fact.


Is it that Christianity isn't immune to violence, or that people aren't? "People defend," "Religious leaders use," notice your word choices? People are the culprits, not the philosophy. You need to understand how to define "Christianity" for your argument; "Christianity" is not "all actions commited by people who call themselves Christians" - it is "the Bible's teachings put into practice." Christianity works wonderfully in practice; the Bible addresses the individual person reading it and shows them how to live well. It's people who aren't actually putting those words into practice that cause problems.

Some organized religion has given Christianity a bad name, such that people have trouble separating what the Bible says you should do from what different denominations do. Catholicism, for one, makes it seem like everyone needs to follow a set of rules in order to be forgiven/saved. What does the Bible say? Believe in Jesus and accept him and you're saved. Pray and you are forgiven. The candles, robes and all that are just someone imposing their rules on you, and yes you should not be happy about that (unless you enjoy those rules; technically there's nothing wrong with them, they just aren't necessary going strictly by the Bible). That's why I attend a non-denominational church, which does not try to add anything extra to the Bible's teachings.

About the Bible's accuracy, no, I was wrong. The Bible was reprinted so many times that typos and misspellings and random words galore got fed into the text, and it happened so many times that these mistakes ended up coming full circle and making sense in the more recent copies. Look, bottom line: the Bible is not incoherent or inconsistent anywhere. Therefore, arguing that the text got messed up in translation is rediculous, because changes caused by those kinds of mistakes would have to have lead to incoherence. The Bible really does claim what it claims, and always has. Now that that's straight, either believe it or don't. There is no excuse. No one would make this argument against any other historical text.

Don't go by what your college professors told you. Hell, try reading the Bible in an attempt to disprove it; for some weird reason many critics become Christians doing just that.

And your bit about journals is borderline incoherent. Are you suggesting that the implications of some Joe-shmoes journal is not important to anyone, and therefore neither is the Bible? If not, maybe you misread something I wrote, because you're not making sense. The only reason I brought up journals was because you seemed to think that it was a rare occurence that historical events were recorded AFTER they happened and not before or during.



"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later."   -C.S. Lewis

"We all make choices... but in the end, our choices... make us."   -Andrew Ryan, Bioshock

Prediction: Wii passes 360 in US between July - September 2008. (Wii supply will be the issue to watch, and barring any freak incidents between now and then as well.) - 6/5/08; Wow, came true even earlier. Wii is a monster.

*** Once again  PlagueOfLocust i agree with you 100% ***

Ok. I'm going to respond to yorch, but i'm going to say now, i'm not attacking your thoughts or anything, you have you right to think whatever you want,  but i'm replying in defense of Christianity.

 "I am somekind of atheist, I don't belive in any great power or such things. Still, I think there are many things that science has not touched yet. For me, religions cover the weakness of human mind. Because is really hard sometimes when you do not believe in anything, really hard. It's hard to believe that when you'd die, there would be nothing, in fact, it causes me great pain when I think seriously about it. But at least, when I die, I won't notice that, as I will be pretty dead xD. I really would like to actually belive in some god, or anything but cold-science only, but i can't (the story about the bible is what someone has posted before: if you tell someone who tells someone who tells somen... the last one has a different story)"

Religion is not a weakness of the human mind, but rather a strength of the human mind. The Christian Faith can only make you mentally and spiritually stronger. It is really hard not only to keep your Christian Faith with everybody telling you that scientifically God doesn't exis, or that your Faith is a primitive tool of the Ancient Man, but to follow the Righteousness that Christianity holds. To not be perverted in any way, to uphold your Faith above all, yet be humble. To turn the other cheek yet to stand as a solid rock. In fact, it is those who leave Christianity for something else that are mentally weak. it takes a high level of thinking to even grasp the concept of God simply because God is not Natural, nor could he be explained by the Scientific laws of the Universe for the sole reason that he created them all. He is above all that he Created.

It is hard to believe, that you are only a Natural occurence in Earth. If you look in the mirror long enough, and think about yourself, you'll seem to be out of your body. This is proof of something beyond Science. It is called Nescience, on which Science swims upon. All throughout the Universe is proof of Nescience, but because of this modern day an age of our scientific jargon we are afraid to call something a mystery beyond Science. We have become souless beasts. That is our problem with Science. We forget that there is more to life, beyond scientific explaination.

"The story about suicides is pretty logical. Life is completely senseless. The existence itself is senseless. What's more, if you believe in any religion, immortality is completely senseless. Imagine you life for the rest of the eternity... It would be horrible (well, firstly it'd be incredibly boring). It's even more hard to believe than there's nothing after life. And, If you're religion does not belive in immortality, it's the same story as the atheists."

This is an expected way of thinking, and i'm gald that you thought of it. Look what life without God the Eternal has done to us. We have lost our thought of Paradise. We have lost our concept of a wonderful world. Why? Because as created beings, we can only compare things to what we already know. The concept of Eternal Life escapes us, simply because we compare it to what we are thought up as Paradise to be. The Eternal Life is beyond anything we can ever know. And it woudn't be boring, or time consuming. Eternity is not like Time. Eternity Is. There is no Past, Present or Future, or i should rather say, it is all there at the same time blended together and more. Eternity cannot be grasped by the Created either, mainly because we live in Time and all we know is Time. What you call Eternity is something called Forever. Its hard to explain or understand (i even have problems understanding it) but, Eternity Is because God is Eternal, and God Is. To live Eternally is to live within God, the way God lives. That, is a precious gift, that would be foolishly turned down. 

 "I will always support any religion is based on repect and equallity among individuals, what I really hate is someone who forces me (or ties to convince me) to believe in something I don't belive, as I don't try to convert anyone who believes in any god. In fact, I have many religious friends, and the majority of them don't believe in the "church" as an entity. I mean, they believe in god and holy scriptures, but not in what Ratzinger says (I'm from spain, so many people is catholic, but church here is extremely politizised)."

First off, I'm not trying to Convert you or anything, i hope you know that. The biggest thing i'm trying to do is to get you thinking more and to make you stop thinking as lowly of religion as you do. And about the church, what most people don't realize (religious or not) is that the church is not God. The Church is not Christ, and you shouldn't obey what the church says, you should obey what the Bible says. It is because of this Love of the Church which led to the church becoming as corrupt as it is today, making itself into another form of oppresive government. This Love of the Church is what led to the Crusades. People Listened the the church (which was at that time corrupt) and fought in the Crusades.

Basically, the Bible and Christian Faith as a whole is way more important than the Church.  



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I have mixed feelings about this topic. I do believe in God but in an awkward way. My true faith is broken into two major parts that are way too difficult to describe so I am going to keep it short:

1) GhaudePhæde. Clearly, this is two words, mashed into one word. Both words have been altered from their correct American-English spellings. Ghaude (God) and Phæde (Fade). I believe that Ghaude is evolution (Phæde). As our we evolve, so does our perception of God. This is how we explain simple juxtaposing principles. Evolution of thought is evolution of God. God is only prominent in thought, and theory. As far as physical status, there is no God. How God accepts mankind is much more reflective of how mankind is receptive of each other opposed to how a strict deity or set of deities would respond.

As an example, when Christianity was began, tattoos were expressly prohibited. Today, I know many upon many religious people of all walks of life with tattoos of Jesus, Virgin Mary, ect. Because mankind has an evolved perception of tattooing and other addicts, God now accepts these people. This is as far as I am willing to go for space reasons.

2) 010. Simple really. 010 is Thee Evolution Code. It simply explains the code of all life and evolution. No existence, Existence, No existence . Mathematically, there is no true explanation of how something that is a zero becomes a one. One must exist in order to change zero as a rule of property. Yet, if there is nothing, how do you get something? This principle pertains, in my belief to God. Before mankind, there was no God. Mankind is here, and there is God. Mankind will one day cease existence and there will no longer be God.

Just this little bit alone has taken too much space. But there is a giblet of my beliefs.



01000110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01001001 01111001 01101111 01101100 01100001 01101000 00100001 00100000 01000110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01000101 01110100 01100101 01110010 01101110 01101001 01110100 01111001 00100001 00100000

tombi123 said:
CameronHall1 said:
Ofcourse theres a GOD and Jesus is the Son Of God.

 have you got any evidence for the existance of god? 


Every religion has some faith. Even Evolution and the Big Bang Theory have some form of faith. They do not have enough evidence to prove that they're right. That is what makes a religion a religion. You have faith in it.