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Bored4life said:

      The real problem that I'm seeing here is that every time someone offers a solution to Nintendo's supposed online problems they always end up trying to make the current model operate closer to the PC online model that they're accustomed to,a model that Nintendo is clearly trying to separate itself from.The HD consoles that are following the PC/movie models are currently losing so I don't think Nintendo should be copying them.
      Realistically I think that not a person here on this forum can give Nintendo any advice on this matter since all of us are accustomed and stuck to this mindset.
      Nintendo has a plan to do it different and whether we like it or not,currently it's working.When all is done then we can analyze it and see how well these new values are compared to the old ones and see if they really paid off.

This thread should be closed.


So I take it you believe that everything Sony did the 10 years before the 360 came out was perfect?



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windbane said:
Onyxmeth said:

I'm going to jump into this on windbane's behalf because I feel he's right.

1. Voice chat is necessary for certain games that require teamwork aka co-op gameplay. How would you expect to play Gears of War or Army of Two online co-op without voice chat? It's damn near impossible. In fact, the game Resident Evil Outbreak for PS2 was ruined because of no voice chat. You couldn't communicate with your teammates, making it impossible to cooperate correctly.

2. The DS has voice chat, so please explain again how Nintendo wants to play it safe with voice chat. Their first game to have it? Pokemon Pearl/Diamond, a game marketed directly to children. If the DS can have it why can't the Wii? I'll wait for someone to scroll through the Bible of Malstrom to find their answer.

3. If the Wii is supposed to be so safe for families, why does it contain an unrestricted web browser? There's plenty of damaging content on the web for children.


Well, you argued it better than I did, so thank you. I forgot to mention RE: Outbreak. It was mentioned in the EGM article I just read in the new issue. The topic? How Nintendo's lack of voice chat sucks. The title of the article is: "Feeling Disconnected." The subtitle: "Online play on the Wii blows, but does Nintendo even need to care?" I think they do, but that's besides the point. No one has addressed your points about the DS having voice chat and the Wii having a web browser. Edit: Just_Ben: I read you, heh. Only-friends would certainly be a nice option. Voice chat is always an option...if you don't have a headset you don't hear people talk.


 Allow me to apologize in advance: I won't be online for a few days after I post this, so I'll be unable to hear your response to my points. However, I do feel this needs to be said.

The voice chat system we currently have is broken. Period. It works fine for the niche, but it's a massive turn-off for the rest of the population. That population, by the by, is precisely the people that all three of the console manufacturers are trying to target, so "business as usual" simply isn't going to cut it. This isn't just my opinion, though: the man who ran Microsoft Gaming's user research division for several years has said precisely the same thing.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3604/fixing_online_gaming_idiocy_a_.php?page=4

I urge you to read this article. It contains answers to all of your points, answers based on the all-important user data. Most important to this discussion is the fact that the current voice chat system costs developers sales. What Nintendo is trying to do is find a way around the problems caused by "business as usual." They are operating on the same assumption as this article's author when he says "{i}f we want multiplayer gaming to grow, we have to start designing the social environment(s) to appeal to people other than trash-talking, hardcore gamer."

Now, for the other side. I personally do feel that Nintendo makes things a little too difficult when it comes to many things. The Friend Codes thing is one example, although there are many others. I won't pretend to have all the answers, but I do believe that Nintendo could stand to make using Friend Codes easier, and that a lack of voice chat makes using teamwork online borderline-impossible. (I've lost track of how many points my team has lost in capture-the-flag on Medal of Honor Heroes 2, simply because I couldn't tell the person with the flag to take it back to our base) And Onyxmeth's points are all well taken: if Nintendo was completely concerned about voice chat, they wouldn't have already introduced it in the DS.

That said, SkyRender and others are correct when they say Nintendo is deliberately trying to do something new, something different from what we have now, because what we have now is repulsive to the majority of the population. My guess (and I emphasize guess!) is that while Nintendo sees the flaws in the current online system, and while it has some ideas on how to address them, it's not completely certain that its ideas will ultimately pan out, hence the baby steps (in multiple directions) we've seen them take.

I'm personally pessimistic that Nintendo, or anyone else, can ever really bring us the perfect solution to the voice chat conundrum. And even if Nintendo does, I'd be interested in hearing why it took them so long to introduce it to us. That said, I also was prepared to swear that George Bush wouldn't be re-elected, so I can hardly pretend to be infallible. Either way, I hope that Nintendo does something about this situation soon, one way or the other, because I'm getting tired of having my Medal of Honor games inevitably dissolve into a series of individual duels.

P.S. This may be my most rambling post ever, and that's saying something... 



dib8rman said:
Damn it I am just too sleepy to go looking through the internet for ESRB's standing for online play.

For the record wind bane last time I checked you didn't buy the internet with a E rating on it.

Also like it was said before VOICE CHAT IS COMING, so whats the point of this sub-topic, argueing that it should be in now is just sublime annoyance; you can't change the past.

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp

towards the bottom of the page is their policy on online games



Currently playing: Okami (Wii), The World Ends With You (DS), and Shenmue (Dreamcast)

windbane said:
Bored4life said:

The real problem that I'm seeing here is that every time someone offers a solution to Nintendo's supposed online problems they always end up trying to make the current model operate closer to the PC online model that they're accustomed to,a model that Nintendo is clearly trying to separate itself from.The HD consoles that are following the PC/movie models are currently losing so I don't think Nintendo should be copying them.
Realistically I think that not a person here on this forum can give Nintendo any advice on this matter since all of us are accustomed and stuck to this mindset.
Nintendo has a plan to do it different and whether we like it or not,currently it's working.When all is done then we can analyze it and see how well these new values are compared to the old ones and see if they really paid off.

This thread should be closed.


So I take it you believe that everything Sony did the 10 years before the 360 came out was perfect?


 No.Never implied this.Learn to understand what you read.

 



Prediction:
Disney will make KH3 with Nintendo.Yes,KH3 will be a Disney/Nintendo crossover.

Save the industry,Kill a Hardcore gamer

Stopped buying Ubisoft games.Will not buy Red Steel 2.Let them struggle on HD. Click here for a solution:CLICK
ALERT: I have also exposed a UBI'Z'OFT viral marketer in THIS thread.Read my posts, see the set up and watch how everything crumbles on page 8. Please learn from this experience.

noname2200: I just don't think that the majority of online gamers are completely turned off by voice chat. All you need is a mute option or individuals and everyone. The mute for everyone doesn't even have to be a software solution: you simply don't use a headset.

I don't know why some people are trying to make this into a complicated issue. The fact is Nintendo is behind. There is no great innovative solution waiting to be implemented. We waited years and years for Mario Kart online play and what did we get? A decent system that is like everything else out there. The big game before that? Brawl, and it's laggy.

If you don't like voice chat: don't wear a headset. If someone annoys you: mute them. If you only want voice chat with friends: play with friends. If you want voice chat with only friends while playing with lots of people: mute everyone else or hope that the option is implemented for "friends only." That's a nice option.

Voice chat isn't ruining anything. It's always optional. The problem with the PS3, and it would be a problem with the Wii, is that a headset is not included with the system. If the Wiimote could somehow be used, that would be helpful, but the Wiimote doesn't have good enough sound quality for outputting (at least judged by No More Heroes), and it would easily pick up sound from the TV because it's not always close to your mouth.

Griefers are more of a problem than voice chat, because you can't turn them off. Every online game has those. That was a big excuse for people defending Nintendo's excuse for not having online play before they finally started catching up. Playing online is dangerous and not fun.

Nintendo is behind. Hopefully they catch up, but don't expect a solution better than what is out there, because what is out there is really good. It's the same situation as Nintendo had with online games, as I've said. They were behind, they finally starting catching up, but what they have done isn't any better than anyone else and in fact is still behind.



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Bored4life said:
windbane said:
Bored4life said:

The real problem that I'm seeing here is that every time someone offers a solution to Nintendo's supposed online problems they always end up trying to make the current model operate closer to the PC online model that they're accustomed to,a model that Nintendo is clearly trying to separate itself from.The HD consoles that are following the PC/movie models are currently losing so I don't think Nintendo should be copying them.
Realistically I think that not a person here on this forum can give Nintendo any advice on this matter since all of us are accustomed and stuck to this mindset.
Nintendo has a plan to do it different and whether we like it or not,currently it's working.When all is done then we can analyze it and see how well these new values are compared to the old ones and see if they really paid off.

This thread should be closed.


So I take it you believe that everything Sony did the 10 years before the 360 came out was perfect?


 No.Never implied this.Learn to understand what you read.

 


You say what what Nintendo is doing is currently working, but you can only mean that in that they are selling consoles and games right now. They are clearly behind in some areas, and being successful because of other factors does not mean they know what they are doing with everything.



@windbane

The only reliable indication of "it's working" is that it's selling. It means that people want it. It may be behind in technical terms, but it really doesn't matter. People tend not to buy technology, they buy something else, whether it be an experience, a tool for a job, something to show off. In all those cases, the technology is not the primary value or driver of sales, but rather what you can do and get from your purchase.

For those who play online now in PC/X360/PS3 and enjoy it, the experience they get is of course good, but for the vast majority of people it is not. Any argument about internet forums such as this one are inappropriate since most message boards have mods to keep things under control. It's been quite well researched that the social inhibitions of being an asshole in real life are drastically lessened in online behaviour, so the density of assholes you encounter in the anonymous net is greater by orders of magnitude.

If a person decided to try online gaming and the first experience is that you're being called by every name in to vocabulary, and some invented ones, that person won't be easily persuaded to try it again. That's the problem with the current systems, and it's not so much a technical problem as it is a social problem. And fixing social problem via technology is not an easy task, to say the least. If you could only chat with your friends, that would be a partial solution, but seeing as consoles are used by many different people, you'd need multiple friend lists and user accounts and that would again complicate things for the general public. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's not as easy as you'd think when you want to make it work for everybody.



@Windbane: Majority of online gamers aren't, but majority of potential online gamers are. Atleast according to that M$ research. Everyone isn't interested hearing someones thoughts about your skin color/sexuality/your mothers sexuality/IQ.
The online stuff would be much bigger business, if it would reach more of its potential.

@Bored4Life: The PC online system doesn't have problem with its idea, but some thing may need to be done differently.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.