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Forums - Sales - Now Do You Think Nintendo Will Reach 50% Market?

FishyJoe said:
Mifely said:

 

Actually, to quote myself, I said it was "possible that a colossal number of households" owned both. I don't need to "prove" anything about that statement of possiblity. In any case, let me put down some crazy other possiblities for the readers of this post to ponder:

* Many gamers who put the $ down to purchase a 360 or PS3 can probably afford a Wii as well.

* Many gamers who own a 360 or PS3 probably enjoy Nintendo titles, like SMG and Zelda, just to start.

* To suppose that most Wiis owners do not own a 360 (in America) is also to suppose that (in America) most 360 owners do not own a Wii, since the number of 360s still exceeds the number of Wiis (in America).

* I think its a pretty big assumption to make, assuming that a gamer who enjoys his 360/PS3 doesn't like Mario, and cannot afford a Wii or hasn't been able to get one by now.

 

I think presuming that "most households only own one console" is a pretty big leap. I'd like to see, at the least, some good reasoning for that -- I haven't yet!

Nintendo has recently stated that 97% of the voters on the Wii voting channel are male -- that's pretty interesting, considering that the Wii isn't appealing to 360/PS3 owners, by your assumptions. Lots of males comprising the casual audience the Wii embraces, but shunning the HD consoles? They want a Wii but not a 360/PS3, do you suppose?

I smell fanboy science in the assumption that a significant number of Wii owners (not necessarily a majority, but I think its likely) do not also own a 360/PS3.


Sales tracking group NPD has announced the results of a new gaming study, showing that 72 percent of the U.S. say they played games, online play still lagging behind offline, and an overwhelming minority owning more than one next-gen system.

...

Finally, NPD says only three percent of respondents said they owned two of the three next-gen consoles, and only 2 percent said they owned all three.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18107

 

Thank you, FishyJoe.  Your scientific and effective response to my points are appreciated and respected.



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Squilliam said:
Grampy said:
Mifely said:

The idea of "50% market share" by comparing raw sales is pretty messed up.

Why is it messed up? Thats how market share is always measured. Not even Sony or Microsoft have ever challenged the method. They sometimes dispute the data (without noticable success) and sometimes the conclsions drawn, mainly because they are unpleasant.

 The Wii, being the cheapest console of this generation and a direct successor/replacement of the GameCube

The Wii, with a revolutionary control system is not a replacement for the GameCube which used conventional controls. It shares backwards compatability. It is not actually cheaper, at many major distributers, (Amazon, GameStop) the cost of the required Wii bundle meets or exceeds the price of the HD consoles which are sold unbundled. Xbox 360s are in plentiful supply used at an average price $50 below the Wii's list price. People apparently buy the Wii because they want the Wii not because of price

, probably co-exists in a colossal number of instances with a 360, a PS3, or both.

NOT TRUE less than 3% (NPD)

Given a choice, users will probably choose the 360 or PS3 as their platform of choice for cross-platform releases (for obvious reasons).

Applies to a whooping 3%  and NOT SUPPORTED BY SALES FIGURES - "OBVIOUS REASONS" IS AN OPINION ALSO NOT SUPPORTED BY SALES FIGURES

"Market share", in the long-run, is really about software, not hardware. Comparing the three current-gen consoles as if most users only owned one exclusively is pretty much the definition of "bad science",

 "Market share", of consoles is not about software, it is about the market shares of consoles

Comparing the three current-gen consoles as if most users only owned one exclusively IS REQUIRED BY THE FACTS  97% (see NPD above)

especially at this relatively early stage.

18 months (longer for the X360) is not that damn early. If you understood statistics you would realize that the sample size is plenty big to allow for predictions especially in this case where both numbers and trends are fairly obvious. Markets have a great deal of inertia and trends do not reverse suddenly

 The only way you could claim one console has definate strangehold on marketshare, for a given console generation (lets not include the PS2, please) , would be to take that consoles #s and subtract the sum of its competition first -- this would still put the Wii in the negatives at this moment. That might at least provide a decent starting basis.

This is just bizarre, so far in left field I don't even know how to respond. Market share as a percentage is actually a pretty straight forward calculation. If 10 consoles are sold and 5 are Wii, 3 are X360 and 2 are PS3 then the marker shares are 50%, 30%, 20% end of fricking story 

The fact that the 360 and PS3 are so superior to the Wii, technologically,

That the 360 and PS3 have higher resolution graphics is a FACT. Whether they are technologically superior is an OPINION. The innovation of motion controls in many peoples mind is more important technologically than mere pixel count

goes a long way to favor users spending $60 on the HD version of a cross-platform game, as opposed to the "practically last-gen" Wii

Another OPINION and a rather biased one at that 

version at $50, as well. Essentially, any household which owns a Wii, and also a PS3 or 360,

All 3% of them, I think it's time to just drop this complete nonsense about the huge numbers of multiconsole homes. They don't exist making this arguement fairly silly 

will see the Wii's market penetration in that household trumped for cross-platform releases.

Much of the Wii's current number advantage over the HD consoles is due to its price,

 Another OPINION not supported by the small and transient effect of price cuts, the real world street pricing where the premium (bundle or pricing as on Ebay) makes the Wii more expensive, the the large available number of used X360s. Believe it or not, and apparently you don't, opinion polls have shown that most Wii owners bought it by choice. >70% are adult males who can afford whatever they g-damn want. The puchasers of the HD consoles are actually demographically younger and presumably have less disposable income

and a solid round of 1st party releases by Nintendo early on. Imagining that people will choose Wii software over 360 or PS3 software of higher caliber is pretty presumptuous.

No it's actually called reality and is supported by software sales, Not that software sales have a damn thing to do with console market share except in your mind

 In that sense, the Wii can never truly "beat" its competition.

Actually it already has, Sorry to be the one to break it to you. Not only does it have an insurmountable lead but the fact that it outsold both HD consoles combined DURING the launch of their biggest AAA game was game, set and match. The NPD figues next month and the month after including Wii Fit will be the formal burial

Its not a good enough console to cover the more fervent gamers decently.

Not completely true, some fervent gamers prefer it, but mostly irrelevant. The population of "hardcore gamers" is just not large enough to overcome the Wii. That's why the HD consoles, which I conceede are more popular in that gamer population are showing clear signs of market saturation at their current levels

The Wii can *be* beaten,

Another OPINION without factual support but if you do think of a way please send it to either Sony or Microsoft because they need it bad 

however. Although that does seem to look less and less likely,

The one completely correct statement in this whole thing

assuming that it gets some decent non-casual titles here and there.

A better measure of "market share" might be "total number of new software titles sold each week"  If you use the top 20 for each console, for this week (in America), as a measuring stick:

Talk about cherry picking. Oh yes, lets compare just the top twenty this week,IN THE USA with names starting with G, sold by BestBuy counting only Tuesday Weds. and Thursday, what the hell is this? Not only is that a statistically absurd way to measure market share of consoles but you just happened to pick  a week with GTA IV and BEFORE Wii Fit, GIVE ME A F**KING BREAK


IMPRESSIVE! I have not seen such an impressive show of arrogance, convoluted and widely distorted pseudo-logic and just plain muddle-headed thinking outside of the Whitehouse. You should be kinda proud. It’s just not possible to see that caliber of bullshit every day. Come on admit it, you're no amateur. I bet you wrote the rationale for invading Iraq didn't you?

His argument still stands, attack the argument instead of the person perhaps?

Market share defined by hardware or software?

Do people value a Wii game over an HD console when they have the choice? Further do they value it as worth another $10 more?

There, argue some of those points or find your own. But try to realize that attacking the person behind the argument is a falacy and doesn't prove anything.

Please see above, I intended to spare people reading things that most of them already know. This is at best desperate. It this analysis was actually done in good faith then I do apologize for comparing him to the Whitehouse which I agree is pretty insulting. I will have to stand by my characterization of the quality of the logic however.

 



Just for fun, I decided to use World numbers in the same calculations I did above.

Total software units sold last week, worldwide, top 20 titles only:

Wii: 1.732M

X360: 1.084M

PS3: 0.783M

 

As a market share, big assumption that each unit averages out about the same for profit across consoles:

Wii: 48.12%

X360: 30.12%

PS3: 21.76%

 

As a % software units (week) market share over number of HW units (total) market share:

Wii: 48.12/45.36 = 1.0608

X360: 30.12/32.76 = 0.9194

PS3: 21.76/21.88 = 0.9945

 

...so indeed, worldwide, even by my wacky calculations, the Wii looks to be the champ in every dept.  I stand humbled.  Thanks for all the personal attacks.  I love an intelligent discussion.

I've noticed that the data seems biased more heavily for the 360/PS3 toward new releases (current example: GTA4), whereas the Wii appears to have more consistent numbers through its top 20.  This, to me, seems to suggest that HD console owners are more likely to be interested in jumping the gun and purchasing software at full price (perhaps this goes hand-in-hand with their willingness to buy a more expensive console), which might imply that my "big assumption" about per-unit profits averaging out for large numbers may be a bigger assumption than I originally thought.

Sorry to bring ideas to the table, as always.  Good luck with your flame wars.



Grampy said:
Squilliam said:
Grampy said:
Mifely said:

The idea of "50% market share" by comparing raw sales is pretty messed up.

Why is it messed up? Thats how market share is always measured. Not even Sony or Microsoft have ever challenged the method. They sometimes dispute the data (without noticable success) and sometimes the conclsions drawn, mainly because they are unpleasant.

 The Wii, being the cheapest console of this generation and a direct successor/replacement of the GameCube

The Wii, with a revolutionary control system is not a replacement for the GameCube which used conventional controls. It shares backwards compatability. It is not actually cheaper, at many major distributers, (Amazon, GameStop) the cost of the required Wii bundle meets or exceeds the price of the HD consoles which are sold unbundled. Xbox 360s are in plentiful supply used at an average price $50 below the Wii's list price. People apparently buy the Wii because they want the Wii not because of price

, probably co-exists in a colossal number of instances with a 360, a PS3, or both.

NOT TRUE less than 3% (NPD)

Given a choice, users will probably choose the 360 or PS3 as their platform of choice for cross-platform releases (for obvious reasons).

Applies to a whooping 3%  and NOT SUPPORTED BY SALES FIGURES - "OBVIOUS REASONS" IS AN OPINION ALSO NOT SUPPORTED BY SALES FIGURES

"Market share", in the long-run, is really about software, not hardware. Comparing the three current-gen consoles as if most users only owned one exclusively is pretty much the definition of "bad science",

 "Market share", of consoles is not about software, it is about the market shares of consoles

Comparing the three current-gen consoles as if most users only owned one exclusively IS REQUIRED BY THE FACTS  97% (see NPD above)

especially at this relatively early stage.

18 months (longer for the X360) is not that damn early. If you understood statistics you would realize that the sample size is plenty big to allow for predictions especially in this case where both numbers and trends are fairly obvious. Markets have a great deal of inertia and trends do not reverse suddenly

 The only way you could claim one console has definate strangehold on marketshare, for a given console generation (lets not include the PS2, please) , would be to take that consoles #s and subtract the sum of its competition first -- this would still put the Wii in the negatives at this moment. That might at least provide a decent starting basis.

This is just bizarre, so far in left field I don't even know how to respond. Market share as a percentage is actually a pretty straight forward calculation. If 10 consoles are sold and 5 are Wii, 3 are X360 and 2 are PS3 then the marker shares are 50%, 30%, 20% end of fricking story 

The fact that the 360 and PS3 are so superior to the Wii, technologically,

That the 360 and PS3 have higher resolution graphics is a FACT. Whether they are technologically superior is an OPINION. The innovation of motion controls in many peoples mind is more important technologically than mere pixel count

goes a long way to favor users spending $60 on the HD version of a cross-platform game, as opposed to the "practically last-gen" Wii

Another OPINION and a rather biased one at that 

version at $50, as well. Essentially, any household which owns a Wii, and also a PS3 or 360,

All 3% of them, I think it's time to just drop this complete nonsense about the huge numbers of multiconsole homes. They don't exist making this arguement fairly silly 

will see the Wii's market penetration in that household trumped for cross-platform releases.

Much of the Wii's current number advantage over the HD consoles is due to its price,

 Another OPINION not supported by the small and transient effect of price cuts, the real world street pricing where the premium (bundle or pricing as on Ebay) makes the Wii more expensive, the the large available number of used X360s. Believe it or not, and apparently you don't, opinion polls have shown that most Wii owners bought it by choice. >70% are adult males who can afford whatever they g-damn want. The puchasers of the HD consoles are actually demographically younger and presumably have less disposable income

and a solid round of 1st party releases by Nintendo early on. Imagining that people will choose Wii software over 360 or PS3 software of higher caliber is pretty presumptuous.

No it's actually called reality and is supported by software sales, Not that software sales have a damn thing to do with console market share except in your mind

 In that sense, the Wii can never truly "beat" its competition.

Actually it already has, Sorry to be the one to break it to you. Not only does it have an insurmountable lead but the fact that it outsold both HD consoles combined DURING the launch of their biggest AAA game was game, set and match. The NPD figues next month and the month after including Wii Fit will be the formal burial

Its not a good enough console to cover the more fervent gamers decently.

Not completely true, some fervent gamers prefer it, but mostly irrelevant. The population of "hardcore gamers" is just not large enough to overcome the Wii. That's why the HD consoles, which I conceede are more popular in that gamer population are showing clear signs of market saturation at their current levels

The Wii can *be* beaten,

Another OPINION without factual support but if you do think of a way please send it to either Sony or Microsoft because they need it bad 

however. Although that does seem to look less and less likely,

The one completely correct statement in this whole thing

assuming that it gets some decent non-casual titles here and there.

A better measure of "market share" might be "total number of new software titles sold each week"  If you use the top 20 for each console, for this week (in America), as a measuring stick:

Talk about cherry picking. Oh yes, lets compare just the top twenty this week,IN THE USA with names starting with G, sold by BestBuy counting only Tuesday Weds. and Thursday, what the hell is this? Not only is that a statistically absurd way to measure market share of consoles but you just happened to pick  a week with GTA IV and BEFORE Wii Fit, GIVE ME A F**KING BREAK


Please see above, I intended to spare people reading things that most of them already know. This is at best desperate. It this analysis was actually done in good faith then I do apologize for comparing him to the Whitehouse which I agree is pretty insulting. I will have to stand by my characterization of the quality of the logic however.

 


Excellent and complete! I was really interested when you mentioned that the Wii complete price is higher than the HD consoles, it makes sense. I never thought of it like that.

Ok this topic has been done to death really. But if we didn't keep dragging up the same old crap what would everyone talk about?



Tease.

Mifely said:

Just for fun, I decided to use World numbers in the same calculations I did above.

Total software units sold last week, worldwide, top 20 titles only:

Wii: 1.732M

X360: 1.084M

PS3: 0.783M

 

As a market share, big assumption that each unit averages out about the same for profit across consoles:

Wii: 48.12%

X360: 30.12%

PS3: 21.76%

 

As a % software units (week) market share over number of HW units (total) market share:

Wii: 48.12/45.36 = 1.0608

X360: 30.12/32.76 = 0.9194

PS3: 21.76/21.88 = 0.9945

 

...so indeed, worldwide, even by my wacky calculations, the Wii looks to be the champ in every dept. I stand humbled. Thanks for all the personal attacks. I love an intelligent discussion.

I've noticed that the data seems biased more heavily for the 360/PS3 toward new releases (current example: GTA4), whereas the Wii appears to have more consistent numbers through its top 20. This, to me, seems to suggest that HD console owners are more likely to be interested in jumping the gun and purchasing software at full price (perhaps this goes hand-in-hand with their willingness to buy a more expensive console), which might imply that my "big assumption" about per-unit profits averaging out for large numbers may be a bigger assumption than I originally thought.

Sorry to bring ideas to the table, as always. Good luck with your flame wars.

 

Hey, if you come into an arguement both arrogant and wrong about something that's basic common knowledge you should expect to catch some shit.

Whether software is purchased at full price or discount doesn't matter to a developer. They get the same amount either way.

Aside from that Wii games cost a lot less to develop... well more then the 10 dollar difference in price. Comments from developers suggest it's somewhere between 2 and 12 times cheaper.

So your big assumption is a big one. Just not one in the direction you are thinking.

Given an equal amount of sales, a Wii game is likely to pull in more profit for a developer then a PS3 or 360 game alone. Which is why it's becoming more and more impossible to find PS3 and 360 exclusives that weren't either first party or part of some huge payoff. 



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Squilliam said:
Grampy said:
Squilliam said:
Grampy said:
LongLiveTheBeatles said:

A more likely event is that the wii will continue selling at the current rate but losing a tiny bit of market share whenever a huge AAA game comes out for the PS3 or 360. I think it will level out at 48% and stay there will the PS3 at 27% and the 360 at 25%.


Oh, you mean like the Wii lost market share when GTA IV came out?

Dream on!


The Nintendo hasn't increased production yet. So you would have no way of knowing if that was true or not until the Wii has a consistant supply in the U.S


Sorry to be so slow but I just can' follow the logic there. LongLiveTheBeatles claimed that the Wii would lose market share whenever a AAA game came out on PS360. I rather sarcastic questioned on the basis that the Wii hadn't gone down as a result of GTA IV (AAA if there is such a thing) but in fact had increased.

Now you bring up the question of steady supply which is indeed an issue although I can only see it as artifically holding back Wii sales not increasing them. To me that means that the Wii might have lost  or gained LESS market share because of supply constraints artifically hiding an increaase that otherwise would have happpened but I do not see how it could artifically cause an increase. So when Wii's percentage went upduring GTA IV, the increase must have been real or possibly even more if supply constraints were involved.

 


Ok. If the Demand for the Wii is 1,000,000 per month, but the supply is only 800,000 per month. GTAIV is released and Demand falls to 900,000 or stays the same or rises to 1.2million Wiis per month. How will you know?

How much pent up demand is out there? They may have released half a million Wiis into the American market... can you prove they would not have otherwise sold out that week without MarioKart?

Your argument does nothing to disprove the fact that the Wii's marketshare grew during the release of GTA4.

Its potential marketshare for that week might have been less and we do have indeed no way of knowing that but its actual marketshare certainly increased and unless you want to call inquestion bothvgchartz and NPD's numbers no amount of devious logic can change that fact.

 So yes, Grampy does have a way of knowing if that was true that the Wii's marketshare increased at the time of GTA4's release.



"I do not suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it"

 

I don't mean to offend anyone but those saying it won't ever reach 50% have no back-up statements behind, well, your statements! You' can't just say "it won't reach it because PS360 will probably come out with a new game/device to boot it's sales".

The Wii is bound to reach the 50% mark, and once it has done it, I see no reason why it will stop.



i'm almost positive that it will reach 50% markey share. it's just a matter of when



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Grampy said:
LongLiveTheBeatles said:

A more likely event is that the wii will continue selling at the current rate but losing a tiny bit of market share whenever a huge AAA game comes out for the PS3 or 360. I think it will level out at 48% and stay there will the PS3 at 27% and the 360 at 25%.


Oh, you mean like the Wii lost market share when GTA IV came out?

Dream on!


 And when did it miraculously sell 600,000 consoles. So you're saying that the wii sell 600,000 consoles everytime a AAA game is released. 

Give me a break. 



55% by end of this year is what have said since last year.