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Forums - Nintendo - The flight of third parties, my take on the Wii and its shovelwares

That's quite a spin, Squilliam. Though you pointed one of the key flaws of the games industry as it stands now: it's basically the same games getting remade with new titles and new characters. They kindly refer to this as "genres" and "sequels", instead of outright admitting that they're basically repackaging what's already been made and slapping a proverbial new coat of paint on it (and maybe a few new bells and whistles to make it stand out, if they're feeling ambitious).

Perhaps you're fine with that. Maybe you even like playing the same few games over and over again with slight changes and improvements to the formula, or with occasional new obstacles to make the gameplay more challenging over past entries. That means you fit the target market of the industry at large. But that's not what appeals to the mainstream. And the mainstream is quite a lot larger than the core demographic of any industry. The main problem being that they're not being served with the same level of dedication as the core demographic is, because what the mainstream wants is undefined for the most part. It varies so much that trying to "appeal to the mainstream" is madness.

Until now. As with 23 years ago, Nintendo has opted to give a sizable chunk of the mainstream a desire to opt into gaming where there was none before. The answer to the question "how do you appeal to a group that shares no common interests?" was answered with "create a common interest". And this common interest is at odds with the very rigid definition of what interests the core demographic. But the plan was never to simply leave it at that. Nintendo is doing something called "upstreaming": they are encouraging the mainstream gamers brought into gaming by the new common interest point of the Wii and DS to buy more traditional games. But they're also "downstreaming": they're encouraging long-time gamers to play games which combine the two styles. And imagine that, the most noteworthy games on Wii and DS both are the ones which combine the old with the new...

Gaming is changing. The market is being reshaped. We've seen it reach the advanced stages with the DS. We're just witnessing the beginnings of it on the Wii. This is the part where it gets good, so sit back, watch, and enjoy...



Sky Render - Sanity is for the weak.

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Squilliam said:
Actually the HD market is larger than the non HD market.

Hd machines - PC-PS3-Xbox360
Non Hd machines - PS2-Wii

The assets can be translated between PC PS3 and Xbox360 quite easily, they have investments in the engines and they have franchises that make them money on those systems. HL - Doom - Halo - Timesplitters - COD etc. So the costs at this point to make another HD game when you've already paid for the engine would be quite reasonable at this point. Since it doesn't matter what happens to the HD consoles when considering Wii sales, the opposite is quite true too.

An HD game can target up to ~2/3rds of the game sales market whilst a Wii game will target 1/3rd, Wii games are cheaper but both are viable strategies for success. Im not counting flash games on PC's for simplicity reasons.

Lastly if you're a publisher and you don't want to lay off half your art/engine staff then you have to stick to your current production model.

That scenario would be more plausible if not for the fact that PC gaming is generally in the pits right now, and you are ignoring the still-substantial PS2 user base.



Sky Render said:
That's quite a spin, Squilliam. Though you pointed one of the key flaws of the games industry as it stands now: it's basically the same games getting remade with new titles and new characters. They kindly refer to this as "genres" and "sequels", instead of outright admitting that they're basically repackaging what's already been made and slapping a proverbial new coat of paint on it (and maybe a few new bells and whistles to make it stand out, if they're feeling ambitious).

Perhaps you're fine with that. Maybe you even like playing the same few games over and over again with slight changes and improvements to the formula, or with occasional new obstacles to make the gameplay more challenging over past entries. That means you fit the target market of the industry at large. But that's not what appeals to the mainstream. And the mainstream is quite a lot larger than the core demographic of any industry. The main problem being that they're not being served with the same level of dedication as the core demographic is, because what the mainstream wants is undefined for the most part. It varies so much that trying to "appeal to the mainstream" is madness.

Until now. As with 23 years ago, Nintendo has opted to give a sizable chunk of the mainstream a desire to opt into gaming where there was none before. The answer to the question "how do you appeal to a group that shares no common interests?" was answered with "create a common interest". And this common interest is at odds with the very rigid definition of what interests the core demographic. But the plan was never to simply leave it at that. Nintendo is doing something called "upstreaming": they are encouraging the mainstream gamers brought into gaming by the new common interest point of the Wii and DS to buy more traditional games. But they're also "downstreaming": they're encouraging long-time gamers to play games which combine the two styles. And imagine that, the most noteworthy games on Wii and DS both are the ones which combine the old with the new...

Gaming is changing. The market is being reshaped. We've seen it reach the advanced stages with the DS. We're just witnessing the beginnings of it on the Wii. This is the part where it gets good, so sit back, watch, and enjoy...

So you would argue that civilization IV is not a worthy game because it's the fourth sequal?

Mainstream gamers play the same games over and over again. Solitare - Tetris - Pokemon are the exact same games. People watch the same cliche movies again and again, If you've seen one Action movie you've seen most of them. If you've seen one Hugh Grant or Ben Stiller... People kick the same ball in the same goal with the same people year after year. The question is "what is fun". So long as people find FPS games to be fun then they will keep buying them. It doesn't matter if you've played Halo 1-3, so long as you have fun doing so.

Different games on different systems obviously have different objectives. Graphics and sound technology aids in suspension of disbelief and immersion. There are people who can't even consider purchasing a console until the games look real/feel real. Games like Doom are great arcade shooters but they don't compare to games like Half-life 2 in immersion into their world. I find the Wiimote kills immersion in the game, I don't notice myself pressing the buttons on my controllers, all I notice is the reaction from the game world. Perhaps that comes from not playing my Wii enough, but with anything that becomes automatic your mind is focussed on other things.

For your last point, I don't see solitaire playing girls upstreaming to playing Civilization IV. It fits their needs and gaming fits into their lifestyle. For someone who only wants Wiiplay Wiisports and Wiifit, why would they want to play Mario? Why even then would most Wii owners even bother looking for games beyond the Nintendo offerings? If most suck then they probably won't bother. How can a good third party shine in a sea of crap? That was Ataris downfall and it is a danger to the success of the Wii.



Tease.

You've mistaken the inner core of the market for the mainstream. This is a common problem, I find, largely due to terminology... While games like Pokemon do appeal to a broader portion of the market, they are not mainstream-appeal games. Don't get me wrong, they do sometimes create a market. But once the market is created, after the first iteration, it ceases to be "mainstream" and becomes a part of the core. The reason for this is simple: mainstream interests are not constant. In order for somebody to wish to see a successor to a product, they must believe that a successor is needed. A "mainstream" participant sees no need for successors; they live in the now of the product, and are drawn into the market by the uniqueness of that product. It is the desire for more, for improvement over what gets them into the market, which truly differentiates the mainstream from the core.

To put it in a meaningful context, the mainstream is "outside" of the market in a sense. By default they do not participate in the market, for whatever reason. To "appeal to the mainstream" is to draw a portion of a demographic into the market who were not previously part of the market. If you succeed, then they are no longer mainstream; they are a part of the market. Upon departing the market, they become mainstream again. This is the basic mechanic of market expansion and compression: the entry and exit into and out of the market.

Within this model, there is a level of core dedication. At the outer edges are the fringe of the market, where the most dedicated users reside. These users, frequently self-referenced as "hardcore", dedicate the most resources of any market participant, but are relatively few in number. As you delve into the market at large, you find the broader and less focused components of the core. Though the inner core (which paradoxically is not the hardcore but the non-hardcore) is large, it is spread much thinner dedication-wise than the fringe of the market. However, the deeper you go into the market core, the larger the userbase you find.

Whenever a market expands, it expands from the inside out, growing as less dedicated users are added into the mix, while other users "graduate" to more dedicated levels as they see fit. The fringe is always the slowest to grow or shrink, and the inner core the fastest. This is why you see explosions of new users whenever a market is disrupted: disruption translates to an authentically new demographic for the market, and the market expansion takes the form of the inner core of users growing at abnormally fast rates.



Sky Render - Sanity is for the weak.

As for upstreaming, the goal of upstreaming is never to put the new market into the old market; that's futility. The goal is to get the new market to a point where it can be on even terms with the old market. Which is where the games which combine the old and new which I mentioned before come into play. They are the direction which Nintendo strives to drive the market into.



Sky Render - Sanity is for the weak.

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It resumes to this:

NOBODY gave a cent about the wii. That's why all the "best" 3d party games like Resident evil 5, the prince of persia and Mortal Kombat vs DC and many others weren't planned for the wii/revolution. All the companies really though that the wii was going to lose and the PS360 were going to win like the past generation.

But then everything had a very drastic change: the ps3 was on 3d place, the xbox was on 2d and *gasp* the wii was on 1st. and it have been this way for 2 years.

Nobody expected it. So, they are now trying to figure out what to do. GTA4 sold fine in its first weekend but is now slowing very fast. And that was the game that was going to save the HD consoles.

They thought that making crappy mini games compilations was the solution and find out that it wasn't.

They said that "boohoo nintendo owners just play nintendo games". No. Nintendo owners play WELL MADE games.

The true is that Nintendo gamers are used to high quality games not only pretty looking ones. And that's the exact opposite of what 3d parties does. That's why they hate the wii because they make them THINK HARDER AND DIFFERENT.

This will be a year of change for the 3 consoles. And yes, it will take more time than usual for the wii to have better 3d party support. More than the PS1.

But what's the hurry anyway? It was Nintendo's plan to take things slowly with the wii since the beginning.

So hardcores, keep saying that wii just sells to casuals. You're just making a fool of yourselves. And that's fine.