Erik Aston said: I don't think I wrote enough up front to put my ramblings in context...

 No, I really think you did.

Even in your second wall of text you didn't explain why it matters so much that someone thinks a game you like is casual.  Again, why does it matter so much to you?  How does someone thinking the game is casual change the game and anger you so much to write those giant walls of text? 

ookaze said: I strongly believe that GTA series is not casual at all, and I strongly believe people that say it is do that so that they can downplay the real reasons they play these games (insecure behaviour). Is there another supposedly "casual" game that is Adult Only, 18+ (or even 16+) ? Seriously, people! I read someone made his daughter play GTAIII: so he made his daughter (implying she's < 18 years old) play an Adult Only rated game? This is one of the most irresponsible behaviour to me. But I'm not surprised. Then again, I just came back from visiting two videogame stores, and I saw a boy that sure enough isn't 18 (and lied about his age to the sales clerk) with his mother, that came to buy GTAIV. His mother didn't bat an eyelid at this. It's not new, it was like that with GTAIII. These people clearly are the ones that played GTA III, and weren't mature enough to play it. One of my cousin which isn't even 10 years old was playing one of the GTAIII, killing innocent people and running them over, endlessly. So these people became fans, are hardcore player in the 15-30 young male demographic and of course love GTAIV, typically they are the hardcore crowd. Sorry, but this is not a casual game. No doubt some casuals will buy it, but they don't buy it this soon after it's released. Mostly hardcore people buy games so soon after release. That's why the true casual titles start with few units sales compared to hardcore games, but they stay steady throughout the game's life. That's why Halo is not casual either. Casual titles don't see 85+% drop off after their first week of release. Several even go up in sales compared to their first week of sales. Finally, what I find interesting, is not if GTA is casual or not, I couldn't care less. It's why hardcore players are so eager to call it casual, when they use that term to qualify poor games. I have my guess as to why that is the case, and better understand now that the gaming industry was indeed headed to a serious crash (I'm convinced it will happen now), now that we have such a game that we can now attest will have a 10 average score. The spiral down has started now.

 GTA IV like Halo 3 is a game with immense casual appeal, hence why they sell so much. It's fundamentally impossible to be a purely hardcore game and be so successful. Completely and utterly impossible. Every highly successful game has done so because of their appeal to the casual demographic, including GTA, Halo, Mario, Zelda and CoD. Quite frankly the notion that under half the people that buy GTA IV would be casual gamers (which would surely be the most reasonable way to distinguish between a hardcore and casual game) is quite frankly absurd.

I've seen girls age 12-15 playing GTA VC. Were they going by the story? Nope, they were beating the crap out of people and driving recklessly around the city.

Hardcore? Never.

ookaze said: Sorry, but this is not a casual game. No doubt some casuals will buy it, but they don't buy it this soon after it's released. Mostly hardcore people buy games so soon after release. That's why the true casual titles start with few units sales compared to hardcore games, but they stay steady throughout the game's life. That's why Halo is not casual either. Casual titles don't see 85+% drop off after their first week of release. Several even go up in sales compared to their first week of sales. Finally, what I find interesting, is not if GTA is casual or not, I couldn't care less. It's why hardcore players are so eager to call it casual, when they use that term to qualify poor games. I have my guess as to why that is the case, and better understand now that the gaming industry was indeed headed to a serious crash (I'm convinced it will happen now), now that we have such a game that we can now attest will have a 10 average score. The spiral down has started now.

 

Actually a bunch of "casual" gamers at my work were talking about picking it up day one.

... so i'd say you are wrong.  From what I can tell your traditional casual audience.  People who used to play a lot of games or people who only play a few FPS and football games a couple days a week are just as likely to buy games 1st day... because these are the games they are hyped about.

I mean I know plenty of people who use their systems only for "Madden Boxes" who buy Madden every year first day.  The usual casual gamer is just people who are like hardcore gamers.  GTA is a game that pretty much every friend I knew that didn't touch their PS2's more then 1-2 times a week  for about an hour or two had.   That, Tony Hawk, Madden if they were into sports... and that was about it. 

ookaze said: I strongly believe that GTA series is not casual at all, and I strongly believe people that say it is do that so that they can downplay the real reasons they play these games (insecure behaviour). Is there another supposedly "casual" game that is Adult Only, 18+ (or even 16+) ? Seriously, people! I read someone made his daughter play GTAIII: so he made his daughter (implying she's But I'm not surprised. Then again, I just came back from visiting two videogame stores, and I saw a boy that sure enough isn't 18 (and lied about his age to the sales clerk) with his mother, that came to buy GTAIV. His mother didn't bat an eyelid at this. It's not new, it was like that with GTAIII. These people clearly are the ones that played GTA III, and weren't mature enough to play it. One of my cousin which isn't even 10 years old was playing one of the GTAIII, killing innocent people and running them over, endlessly. So these people became fans, are hardcore player in the 15-30 young male demographic and of course love GTAIV, typically they are the hardcore crowd. Sorry, but this is not a casual game. No doubt some casuals will buy it, but they don't buy it this soon after it's released. Mostly hardcore people buy games so soon after release. That's why the true casual titles start with few units sales compared to hardcore games, but they stay steady throughout the game's life. That's why Halo is not casual either. Casual titles don't see 85+% drop off after their first week of release. Several even go up in sales compared to their first week of sales. Finally, what I find interesting, is not if GTA is casual or not, I couldn't care less. It's why hardcore players are so eager to call it casual, when they use that term to qualify poor games. I have my guess as to why that is the case, and better understand now that the gaming industry was indeed headed to a serious crash (I'm convinced it will happen now), now that we have such a game that we can now attest will have a 10 average score. The spiral down has started now.

So, what has age rating have to do with a game being "casual" or not? Most of the "casual" gamers are beyond 18.

First you describe how GTA3 was played by kids in "casual manner", then you point out that today those kids are 15 and "hardcore", but you didn't point out why they would play the game any differently than back then and how suddenly the 10 years olds today would be any different than the ones 5 years ago?

GTA was originally even designed to be a casual game. Let's say that in the next ten years Wii Sports gets numerous sequels and the core of the game still remains the same, the difference is, that it looks better, and you can get uranium medals as an ultimate proof of skill for the "hardcore", and these Wii Sports gamers are talking about how Wii Sports isn't "casual" at all because of the uranium medals, that are too hard for the casual to get.

And the "casuals" buy the games just like "hardcore", if the game interests them. It's all a matter of hype and advertising. Game without any hype or advertising selling a million on day one would be a proof that the "hardcore" is interested in the game, but having one of the biggest advertising campains in the history of gaming for the biggest franchise of last generation of consoles, kind of disproves the point that only "hardcore" would be day one purchasers.

I got too bored reading your long article, but I'll still say this:
GTA IS a very, very casual game. As stupid as terms like 'hardcore' and 'casual' are, GTA fits the percieved definition of casual like a glove. That is, people who are otherwise non gamers still pick it up and play it just to have a good time. It has a broad appeal to people who otherwise wouldn't think twice about buying games. It is, ironically, the king of casual games.

The Ghost of RubangB said: I recall a time when all games were casual and it wasn't a bad thing. It was called the NES. It only had 2 buttons. It was either jump and shoot, or shoot and special item, or sword and item. Anybody could play anything. IT WAS HEAVEN.

AMEN. I feel like all new gamers should go through a crash course where they're required to play the best games of each previous generation before they're allowed to play todays' games. Educate them on game history, give them some perspective and apprecation, that sort of thing. 

 

The appeal of GTA is universal similar to Nintendo games. Why has this word become derogotary in this generation?

Posting in a GTA thread.

What's really strange is the Japanese imports (which were hard core in the US) became Nintendogs, DDR, Guitar Hero, etc.

Maybe games are games. As in fun diversions.

And maybe, some people are in danger of taking things a little too seriously.