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Forums - Politics - Conservative activist Charlie Kirk murdered in Utah

only777 said:

And Charlie hasn't even been dead for 3 hours and Jeff Grubb is already making jokes about him.

It's just a joke, bro, can't we even make a joke anymore? So much for the tolerant right. 



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LegitHyperbole said:

People's opinions don't deserve death

Depends. If you instigate murder and genocide, imo, you're equally accomplice in crime. It's like gang leaders, the might not be the one directly inflicting the harm, but if they're are commanding and instigating it they should be punished equally

The politician in question haven't done something as extreme I believe, but it happened with a pastor last year in Brazil. He instigated his devotes to attack and kill gay people impling since God can no longer do that it's time for christians to deal with the LGBT, this absolutely should be punished as hate crime even if it's still only an idea 



KLXVER said:
angrypoolman said:

anybody who would even slightly imply that this is not a big deal or he deserved it in some way has some severe evil running through their veins. i cannot think of any public figure who was out there having a dialogue with willing participants get murdered in this way that i would be happy or even indifferent about it. there isnt a single person. this is absolutely tragic. he is leaving behind a poor woman to take care of her two babies alone now, without a father. my heart absolutely breaks.

People are very fast to dehuminize people they dont agree with these days. Its very scary. 

When it comes to dehumanizing other people, he was one of the best.



IcaroRibeiro said:
Tober said:

We don't know the motivation of the killer. Perhaps Kirk slept with someone's wife and it was an act of revenge. But it is likely it was a political assassination which would make it even worse, because that transcends to punishment for thinking differently.

The backbone of a democracy is the free market of ideas and opinions. That is what free speech is all about. It's a market where different messages compete, it is a market where the most popular idea and/or the best messaging wins. And that is how it should be. People choose what message to follow, it should not be dictated to them.

If you did not agree with Kirk's messaging, or any one else's for that matter, then engage with them on that market place. If you think you cannot win, then either the messaging, the message or both are not strong enough. Resorting to a bullet just shows that. That is true no matter on what political isle one is sitting.

A "perfect democracy" with absolute free speech as a system is flawed in a sense people can collectively advertise an idea for the extinction of the democracy. Remember nazist party ascended through popular vote

What is the majority vote against free speech itself? Or to criminalize minority opinion i.e. extinction of opposition. Those cases might not be the extinction of a democracy as a system as people will still have the right to vote and decide, but it effectively leads to at least flawed system or, at worst, a single-party dictatorship in disguise 

TLDR: Free speech and democracy as you suggest are a fantasy, a romantic view about politics not grounded in reality 

So what are you suggesting? Who would decide where to lay the boundaries other then the people collectively themselves?

How do people decide those boundaries other then listing to idea's and make up their mind? If not privy to all idea's, how to make a balanced judgement call?

Yes the Nationalist Socialist Party in Germany came to power by popular vote. Why? Because the competition did not have the more convincing messages and messaging to solve the economic troubles of a demoralized Germany at the time. Nobody had a fortune teller at hand prior to those elections to know what it would end up as.

In retrospect, who would have needed to decide that the Nazi party at the time should be expelled from the elections or not given space to campaign? Remove them from the people's choice with no crystal ball at hand?

Yes, sometimes democratic processes can go very wrong. But it is the least flawed system with the hope of the best outcome. 



Personally I am against any kind of violence, political or non-political, the only cases where it can remotely be justified, is when it is absolutely needed to prevent an even worse act of violence, sometimes in war or law-enforcement. You can be a child rapist serial killer, and I would still be against your execution. Charlie Kirk was not an acute threat to anyone, so the killing was reprehensible.


That being said, just because Charlie Kirk was the victim of this heinous act, doesn't mean we should white-wash his legacy and character. He was an absolute asshole, a savage, republican pundit, professional liar for his party, at least partial white-nationalist, who repeatedly refused to take a stance against political violence when it was targeted his opponents, often lying about it, or mocked the victims. Lucca posted on page 10 a longer list of sick things the guy has said in the past, and that's only scratching the surface. To add to the list he has claimed January 6th was done by Antifa and he has said that he wants public executions to come back and that children should be forced to see them. Often called a free speech warrior by the right, he was 100 % supportive of arresting pro-palestine protesters.
The fact that his opinions were viewed as even remotely mainstream says nothing positive about him, but all about the complete moral collapse that has happened to his country.


Even the outright far-right white nationalists like Nick Fuentes I can have more respect for than Charlie Kirk, because at least they are up-front about the terrible things they believe in. No lying about supporting free speech, no gaslighting about January 6th needed there.



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TheRealSamusAran said:
only777 said:

And Charlie hasn't even been dead for 3 hours and Jeff Grubb is already making jokes about him.

It's just a joke, bro, can't we even make a joke anymore? So much for the tolerant right. 

iTs JuSt A jOkE bRo - in a week or so, it would be funny.  But not on the same day as his murder.

Also right wing?  Keep up son: https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9611642



Sony want to make money by selling art, Nintendo want to make money by selling fun, Microsoft want to make money.

Tober said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

A "perfect democracy" with absolute free speech as a system is flawed in a sense people can collectively advertise an idea for the extinction of the democracy. Remember nazist party ascended through popular vote

What is the majority vote against free speech itself? Or to criminalize minority opinion i.e. extinction of opposition. Those cases might not be the extinction of a democracy as a system as people will still have the right to vote and decide, but it effectively leads to at least flawed system or, at worst, a single-party dictatorship in disguise 

TLDR: Free speech and democracy as you suggest are a fantasy, a romantic view about politics not grounded in reality 

So what are you suggesting? Who would decide where to lay the boundaries other then the people collectively themselves?

How do people decide those boundaries other then listing to idea's and make up their mind? If not privy to all idea's, how to make a balanced judgement call?

Yes the Nationalist Socialist Party in Germany came to power by popular vote. Why? Because the competition did not have the more convincing messages and messaging to solve the economic troubles of a demoralized Germany at the time. Nobody had a fortune teller at hand prior to those elections to know what it would end up as.

In retrospect, who would have needed to decide that the Nazi party at the time should be expelled from the elections or not given space to campaign? Remove them from the people's choice with no crystal ball at hand?

Yes, sometimes democratic processes can go very wrong. But it is the least flawed system with the hope of the best outcome. 

The answer might be counter intuitive, but the best way to protect democracy is really define boundaries for speech and vote. I'm not suggesting, those boundaries already exists for countries with some degree of advanced legislation

Some of those boundaries are often described in constitution. In a perfect democracy with free speech you could vote for states to separate themselves from the federal government, which could lead to a shit tons of issues 

How to solve it? One of the ways is to put in an entrentchment clause (don't know if there is a direct English term for it, needed to google it in portuguese is clausula petrea) that as long the constitution stands the union is not dismemberable. It might not be criminal to propagate the idea your state/community could be free, but in practice you will need to first dissolve the constitution which on itself needs a huge part of the society agreeing and can be a headache for any politician to propose 

We can do the same for rights we believe to be inalienable (like human rights), so include them in the list of free speech exclusion i.e. criminalize saying people needs to die or suffer because they were born with a different skin color

None of those things are so easy or decide in freestyle. So who decides where lands the limits you ask? It's ultimate ourselves who set boundaries, that's politics in practice. Hence, every democracy will have of course some degree of imperfection

You for once thinks it's okay to everyone say whatever they want

In other hand, I feel speech should be limited, because free speech is dangerous 

We will vote, and ultimately politicians will choose based in the boundaries of the constitution and existing laws 



Deleted.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 11 September 2025

Jaicee said:

Charlie Kirk was an asshole who loathed and despised people like me for simply existing with every fiber of his being and spent his adult life actively trying to reduce my legal rights and silence survivors of sexual violence. But now I am expected to offer condolences and heartfelt empathy for someone who had none for the likes of me whatsoever. It's not coming easily. It's hard to love motherfuckers who hate you and dedicate their whole lives to actively causing other people to hate you too (successfully at that). He was shot while denouncing gun control and I'm not supposed to see the obvious irony or mention it if I do because that would be insensitive, as if sensitivity to the feelings, or even deaths, of others was characteristic of Mr. Kirk's life or something. I would be honoring his legacy to respond with as much contempt and disrespect as possible.

No, I'm not, and I repeat NOT endorsing the shooting. I'm just not going to fake how I actually feel out of politeness. Nobody should be killed for their political opinions, obviously. Yet my first feeling in this moment isn't compassion so much as fear. I fear that the response from halls of power down to the street level will be one of sweeping and vastly disproportionate political retribution and wish I could afford to have a different feeling.

I want to add that there has been a lot of political violence here in America in recent years -- more than usual -- and no one's side can claim a monopoly on it or exclusion from participation. We could have a whole discussion about the role of culture-changing events like the 2020 George Floyd murder and protests or the January 6th coup attempt the following year or the October 7th terrorist attacks in Israel and subsequent destruction of the Gaza Strip that has resonated worldwide with just about everyone in that connection, but for our purposes here, I think it suffices to say that elevated levels of political violence, as in the worst wave thereof we've seen since the 1970s, have become a self-reinforcing thing in our culture in recent years. While I don't have stats handy, it feels like the more recent stuff here at home has emanated disproportionately from the Free Palestine crowd specifically, though hardly exclusively. The single most common trait of perpetrators though is just that they are male. It's almost always men who do these things. Not always, but nearly always. I feel like for it scale back, some of the sources of inspiration have to go away. The Gaza War needs to end, for example. Trump needs to go away. Something like that has to happen before there's any real chance of things calming down, IMO. I fear in reality the response to this killing will be retributive violence and more political censorship that will in turn just anger more people. We're in a self-reinforcing feedback loop here that can't lead anywhere good.

There's an old saying:  If you've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything.

You don't like the guy; that's fine.  But just leave it until the dust has settled.

If you don't want to offer condolences, then why do you feel the need to say anything at all?  Is your ego that big that you think everyone needs to hear you?

You have the rest of your life to criticise him, so why not show the humanity you claim to have and leave it a week.



Sony want to make money by selling art, Nintendo want to make money by selling fun, Microsoft want to make money.

Machina said:

I'm surprised how sad this news has made me. I think a large part of the reason is because of how young he was - most of his life just snuffed out like that - and that he has such a young family; his wife must be absolutely devastated and his kids will grow up without him and probably with very few memories of him. I can't begin to comprehend what it must feel like to lose a family member like this.

I'm not super familiar with Kirk, but as anyone who's found themselves scrolling YouTube shorts longer than they'd intended or really wanted to, I've come across quite a few clips of him debating on college campuses here and there. Agreed on some things, disagreed on others (especially religious issues), but that doesn't matter; from what I saw he was always for free and open discussion and debate, allowing his opponents to speak, and never using threats or violence to achieve his political ideals. If he's a target and you celebrate his death then I wonder if there's anyone on 'the other side' that you wouldn't like to see dead. And if this guy was your idea of a Nazi - some may genuinely believe this to be the case, most I suspect just cynically using it as a means to dehumanise their political rivals, in order to maintain a sense of self-righteousness - then I would suggest you have a rather warped definition of a Nazi that encompasses far too many people not just in America but throughout the world.

If free speech is a thing we are actually supposed to believe in, we should be allowed - and ENCOURAGED - to call what we view as a Nazi a Nazi. I actually think this talking point about the Nazi label being used to dehumanise political rivals in itself is an act of dehumanising. Lets not forget that millions and millions of Germans were actually Nazis. These were human beings too, that's a sad realization we all have to come to terms with. Sometimes human beings support deplorable things, and that should and must always be pointed out.
Now, what one should not do is call someone a Nazi, if they do not believe said person is a Nazi. This is still different to comparing someones ideology to Nazism, a lot of parallels can be drawn between MAGA and the 30's Nazi movement, so it makes sense to compare without saying they are the same. A stronger parallel can be drawn to fascism, MAGA can certainly be called a fascistic movement under the most conventional definitions of the word. There are important differences between the Nazism and Fascism of the 30s and 40s and the MAGA movement of today of course, unfortunately most of the differences are not in MAGAs favour. Hitler and Mussolini were both much more up front about what they believed in and planned to achieve, unlike Trump they didn't claim to be pro-democracy before getting power, and then acted dictatorial afterwards, they were honest about that. They also weren't as overtly anti-expertise and anti-intellectualism as the MAGA movement.

That said, it is incorrect calling Charlie Kirk a nazi, though not necessarily incorrect to compare some of his ideas to that movement. It is not incorrect to call him a fascist, by common definitions. It is incorrect calling him a conservative (what did he want to conserve? Not the key institutions of modern western societies at least).

Last edited by Vinther1991 - on 11 September 2025