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Forums - Politics - 12 year old girl in UK put in isolation and sent home by school for wearing Union Jack to Culture Day

SvennoJ said:
curl-6 said:

The problem is what happens 50 or 100 or years down when the local population has been bred out and replaced by imported foreigners?

Societies change, it has happened many times before. The world will go on, countries will adapt. In the end we're all human. We're all in this together.

And it will take quite a bit longer for the the local population to be bred out, nvm newcomers become integrated with the local population and adopt similar values over time. (Unless you isolate them)

Still new ways have to be found to sustain stable or declining populations as the Earth population can't keep growing forever. The capitalist model of running a country is not sustainable.

It's understandable if people do not wish their culture and ethnicity to be replaced in their own country though.

Change may be a fact of life, but societies still have a choice in how they change.



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SvennoJ said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

Its a common theme that I have seen in many countries including my birth country (Brazil). Politicians being elected to do what people want and then going on the exact opposite direction, which then pushes people more into the extremes. It always happened at some extent as you cant keep all your campaign promises, and some promises are made exactly to not be fulfilled, but it seems to me the disconnection between what people want and the agenda being pushed by politicians never been so wide in my lifetime (44).

What I have seen by tory government in the last 8 years, the period I have been in UK if baffling. The vast, unquestionable, supreme majority of british people, left and right, do not want mass migration. Only 9% wants it. 74% thinks it needs to decrease heavily, be net zero, or actually start sending people away to decrease the population. Yet look at what hapenned/happens. And Starmer is going in the same direction.

At the same time, Labour voters do want to see more investment, more spending, reforms on Nymbis, University Fees and other issues, and until now they are dissatisfied as they see Starmer as being almost a Tory.

Its no surprise people are pushed to the extremes, especially when the extremes more and more sound just like a real conservative or labour party would normally say or do. People have nowhere to go.

The avg age of politicians in the UK (in the house of commons) is 50 with an upwards trend, generation X. Their parents are all facing pension troubles with the ageing population.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/key-issues-parliament-2015/social-change/ageing-population/
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/the-uks-changing-population/

Without immigration population would decline in the UK and the only thing these politicians can think of is bring more people into the country, preferably those that have many children, who can work and pay taxes for their state pensions.

It's all self serving... This is what happens if you design your social security on ever growing population. Many western countries face the same issue.

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2017/11/these-animations-show-the-western-world-is-rapidly-ageing/




https://rajawali.hks.harvard.edu/articles/a-rapidly-aging-world-and-the-awaiting-demographic-implosion/

Significantly increased labor migration will be essential for aging societies, and not least for Europe, to function. Closed borders only exacerbate the problem. While there is no shortage of young people in the world — Africa’s median age is 19 — the trend of declining birth rates in more and more countries must be reversed. No developed country offers a successful model for this.


Shut the borders and work until you die is the alternative? Pension age of 71 is already forecast for the UK with the current immigration.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/feb/05/uk-state-pension-age-will-soon-need-to-rise-to-71-say-experts


The young pay for the old social security schemes don't work anymore, a complete overhaul of the current system is needed to suit declining populations. As much as people complain "They're taking our jobs", in fact they're paying for your pension and elderly healthcare.

This is a really good point.

But why are 'native' people not having enough children. This did not appear to be a problem 50 years ago or centuries before that. 

A few decades ago a blue colour worker could support his family, buy a house on one income (my father did). Not so anymore. As a middle class worker you're going to need a 2 household income to afford a house. Plus having children gotten more expensive. Result is that people delay having children, have fewer children or no children at all.

One could look at immigration to solve the child problem, or one could look at why does a 'middle class income' is not enough anymore. 



curl-6 said:
SvennoJ said:

Societies change, it has happened many times before. The world will go on, countries will adapt. In the end we're all human. We're all in this together.

And it will take quite a bit longer for the the local population to be bred out, nvm newcomers become integrated with the local population and adopt similar values over time. (Unless you isolate them)

Still new ways have to be found to sustain stable or declining populations as the Earth population can't keep growing forever. The capitalist model of running a country is not sustainable.

It's understandable if people do not wish their culture and ethnicity to be replaced in their own country though.

Change may be a fact of life, but societies still have a choice in how they change.

Yes, hence so stupid for the school to exclude British culture on culture day!

If you do not wish your culture to be replaced, then promote your culture and find common ground.



curl-6 said:

The problem is what happens 50 or 100 or years down when the local population has been bred out and replaced by imported foreigners?

The local population will slowly disappear anyway, with birth rates as low as they are now. Immigrants, at least, can provide a workforce and pay taxes to fund pensions. The other option is to work until you die, since there will be no social security anymore. If that's what you want more power to you, I guess?

One stark example is South Korea, they are predicted to shrink by astonishing 85% in the next 100 years if they do not revert their birth rates



Tober said:

This is a really good point.

But why are 'native' people not having enough children. This did not appear to be a problem 50 years ago or centuries before that.

It was a huge problem when child mortality was high due to famine, war or illnesses. European and Chinese history are infamous for having periods where population was actually declining instead of growing

To answer the world current situation: Changes in cultural habits and efficient contraceptive methods are the reason. People are more individualistic and no longer see having kids as something they need to. And the ones who have kids are satisfied with only one, which is not enough for population replacement anyway 



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IcaroRibeiro said:
curl-6 said:

The problem is what happens 50 or 100 or years down when the local population has been bred out and replaced by imported foreigners?

The local population will slowly disappear anyway, with birth rates as low as they are now. Immigrants, at least, can provide a workforce and pay taxes to fund pensions. The other option is to work until you die, since there will be no social security anymore. If that's what you want more power to you, I guess?

One stark example is South Korea, they are predicted to shrink by astonishing 85% in the next 100 years if they do not revert their birth rates

Then the answer is to find ways to increase the birth rate.



Tober said:

This is a really good point.

But why are 'native' people not having enough children. This did not appear to be a problem 50 years ago or centuries before that. 

A few decades ago a blue colour worker could support his family, buy a house on one income (my father did). Not so anymore. As a middle class worker you're going to need a 2 household income to afford a house. Plus having children gotten more expensive. Result is that people delay having children, have fewer children or no children at all.

One could look at immigration to solve the child problem, or one could look at why does a 'middle class income' is not enough anymore. 

To turn it around, why do developing countries have high birth rates. The answer is (in part), your children are your care takers when you get older. 

One of the unpopular answers is female education and empowerment. Women have careers as well nowadays as opposed to 75 years ago when they were expected to stay home and raise children. Also stimulated by religion. Career planning is difficult while having kids and getting pregnant is still a sure way not to get hired or passed by for promotions etc.

And why are 2 workers not enough nowadays, capitalism, consumerism and the rise of Oligarchy.

50 years ago you didn't need a car as much, you lived where you worked, you shopped where you lived. Now everyone has moved into suburbs and 'needs' multiple cars to get around. You didn't (still don't) need all the luxuries we're used to now. Take out your car payments/insurance, fuel costs, internet, phone, AC, holidays, you have a lot more money left over...

People also live longer today.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/median-age-changes-since-1950/
So not only can you leave kids until later (I didn't have kids until age 35), living costs have also gone up simply because people stick around longer.


The big problem is, our societies are designed post WW2, during the baby boom, forever growth in mind.
And then we let capitalism divert all the wealth to the 1%...
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/07/opinion/leonhardt-income-inequality.html
Wages for the middle class have stagnated since the 80s. 

It's going to take a lot of change to fix all this. First the government needs to be reformed to be for the people again, not just for the 1%.



curl-6 said:

Then the answer is to find ways to increase the birth rate.

The birth rate decline shows people don't want to have kids either. At least not people with more secular background 

The fact this is widespread worldwide in almost every country strongly implies this is a pattern for every modern society, and the only way to break the pattern would be coming back to how things were in past i.e. no more social security (you need children to care of you), women no longer working (more time to raise children), etc



IcaroRibeiro said:
curl-6 said:

Then the answer is to find ways to increase the birth rate.

The birth rate decline shows people don't want to have kids either. At least not people with more secular background 

The fact this is widespread worldwide in almost every country strongly implies this is a pattern for every modern society, and the only way to break the pattern would be coming back to how things were in past i.e. no more social security (you need children to care of you), women no longer working (more time to raise children), etc

If a society has created the conditions where people don't want to procreate then that society needs to change. A large portion of a society not wanting to reproduce is not normal, healthy, or natural behaviour. 



I also need to address that immigration can only solve the workforce shortage for as long as there are poor countries with high birth rates and weak economies. It’s not an infinite solution eventually, even Africa will face declining birth rates

However, immigration can still be used to slow the fast inversion of the social pyramid. This way, we can maintain a healthy labor force to care for the elderly until Gen X and Millennials (AKA us) pass away in the next 50–70 years

The long-term solution will require a complete societal reform. It's clear that we can no longer be driven solely by economic growth. Countries will need to learn how to handle declining GDPs. Since social security, as we know it, will eventually cease to exist, economies will have to be based more on savings than spending.

Do I think any of these reforms will happen in my lifetime? Of course not! So I just want some immigrants to work for me before I die. The rest of Gen Alpha and Beta in the world can figure it out a solution when their time comes, lol