Committing an act in the name of god and committing an act as a person who doesn’t believe in god are not the same thing. Lots of people do terrible things that are not driven by their worldview, lots of religious people commit terrible acts that have nothing to do with their religion.

What we are talking about are acts directly driven by their religion. Strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up random people, piloting aeroplanes into buildings. Creating armies to storm the holy land and pillage, murder and rape said holy land and its residents. Jews and Muslims openly wishing to commit genocide against each other. 

These kinds of actions are not only driven by religion but also enabled by their religion i.e. the suicide bombers believe with 100% certainty they are going to their paradise with 100 virgins waiting for them or whatever nonsense the clerics tell them. In an irreligious world it would be a lot harder to convince people to strap bombs to themselves, and a lot of people would be a lot less emboldened in their harder views.

Religion doesn’t make people bad, but it enables and emboldens people’s worst tendencies, and peoples worst tendencies are generally really pretty bad. 

Unfortunately, there is a lot of religion-based terrorism and other problematic behaviour. We have had religion wars, crusades and in modern times shootings and self-bombings.That hurts!

However, there were some really problematic periods in history when the damage was done from a strictly atheistic world-view. I just name Pol Pot (Cambodia) and Mao Zedong (China) for example. Both made millions of victims.

I don't think the problem is religion (or atheism, for that matter) Both can be used in a damaging way. 

I've read some people saying they 'belief' in science or 'follow the path of reason' as opposed to religion. That intrigues me in two ways.

First of all, this paints a picture of reason vs religion (or faith) But I don't see a opposition between those two. For example, I'm a religious man and also an academic with a cum laude degree. In fact, the most brilliant scientist can be religious people (just google on Francis Collins, for example) Why should religion be opposed to reason?

Second, I'm wondering which science or reason do you mean when you claim something like that? I think science is very important, but I'm not believing in it. In fact, science proved that 40% of the scientifical claims made today, will be outdated in the next 20 years. So again: how can I 'believe' in science? Just to be clear: I'm not saying science is not important, I'm just wondering how I can 'believe' in it.

Pretty sure the British empire was ruled by Christians. I can't really think of a regime more evil. The Nazi's don't come remotely close compared to The British Empire. Colonisation was even promoted and endorsed by the Church for spreading the word of jesus.

The 'belief' is in the scientific process, critical thinking, which is how scientific claims get corrected and improved all the time. For progress.

Religion strives for certainty, stability, doesn't stimulate critical thinking rather the opposite. Against progress.


That's how religion and science are opposites. 

Science is far more damaging than religion, global warming, weapons of mass destruction, remote control industrial scale killing. But also made life much better, curing and extinguishing many diseases increasing avg life span by 55 years over the last 2,000 years.


I rather belief in Universal Human Rights and IHL than any particular religion for morality. Both religious and atheist countries ignore Human rights when it suits them, so can't say who is worse :/ Capitalism is.

What the history books never mention about China is the brutality of Chiang Kai-Shek, who executed millions of people for being suspected Maoists. There’s a reason why the Chinese people had so little support for the Kuomintang, and even Taiwan no longer reveres Chiang because he was such a brute. Chiang was a devout Methodist. There’s also shockingly little mention of the brutality China suffered under the Eight Nation Alliance, which was seven Western nations plus Japan.

Christianity does not have a good history in Asia, which is why the only majority-Christian nations there are the Philippines (a legacy of Spanish and American imperialism) and Timor-Leste (one of the poorest countries on Earth). One of the smartest things Japan did was to keep missionaries out of the country. 

I don't think anyone is arguing that atheists cannot commit evil. But while many of the things people have mentioned are specifically endorsed or enabled by religion (i.e women not being able to go to school in Afghanistan, Catholic priests raping children) the things you've mentioned were not done to promote atheism and were not specifically enabled by atheism. 

As for science, believing in science means that you believe the current findings of science are our current best explanations of what we have found. Some of what we believe will be wrong.

The fact that we can update science is an advantage of a naturalistic world view. As we learn more science gets better, but religion stays static. Which leads to the bizarre reasoning we've seen in this topic as people with modern sensibilities try to justify the morality of their antiquated and often barbaric religions.

All of that said, some findings of science can most definitely be believed. My phone works.  We did eradicate smallpox. We have found fossils exactly where we expected. My antidepressants make me antidepressed. 

Competitively religion has no such demonstrable results. We know for a fact that science has in fact led to a better understanding of the world. We cannot say the same for religion. Of course religious people have made great contributions but they did so through the scientific method.

The only “religious” people who are “saved” are born-again believers who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior. They admit they are sinners in need of a savior. They acknowledge no amount of good works can overcome their sin. And they realize that they will end up in hell for all of eternity unless someone saves them. They confess Jesus Christ as the only one who can save them, because He is God and lived a perfect, sinless life on earth. And He died a brutal death on the cross as punishment for our sins, because He loves us. And He rose from the dead after 3 days and is now in heaven, ready to forgive our sins if we’re willing to receive the free gift of salvation He offers.

At the moment we decide to turn away from our sinful life and place our trust in Jesus Christ, we are justified and declared “not guilty.” We are a new creation and become “born-again” believers. If it is a true conversion, then the Holy Spirit, who is God, comes to live on the inside of us. The rest of our life on earth becomes a process of sanctification. Our character & thoughts & actions are gradually molded into a life holy and pleasing to God. This is the believer’s walk.

The elect were created for good works from before the foundation of the world. But our good works are the effect of our salvation, not the cause of our salvation. And practically speaking, believers will continue to sin until the day we die, because we retain a sin nature. God created the universe and mankind “very good.” But He also gave mankind free will, because without free will, then love is impossible. Think about it – software code or AI or robots cannot display real love. But with true free will, there must be at least the possibility of evil. And in mankind’s case, there is so much evil.

With the fall of Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden, sin & disease & disaster & death & decay entered the universe and mankind. So the entire book of the Bible, which is God’s divinely-inspired & 100% inerrant revelation to mankind, is a story of God’s redemption of His creation & mankind. But not all of mankind will be redeemed – only born-again believers saved by Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Believers will receive eternal life in heaven, because their sins have been paid for by the blood of Jesus. Non-believers will be judged & declared guilty. They will be sent to hell for all of eternity.

And unfortunately, most people fall into the “non-believer” category. This include religious people who follow false religions, such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. It also includes Christian cults, such as Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses. It includes Roman Catholicism, which has a warped view of salvation & is basically just paganism with a “Christian” skin. It certainly includes secularists, such as atheists and agnostics. And it includes anyone else who doesn’t fall into any of these categories, but who do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is also one more category of non-believer – the fake “Christian.” Let me explain. The process of salvation in the life of a believer is immediate justification, then gradual sanctification, and then upon death - ultimate & eternal glorification. If a so-called believer does not bear fruit (i.e., good works), and he continues to live a life of ongoing sin, with no real tangible demonstration of a relationship with Jesus, then it is likely his conversion was not a real one. Only God knows. But if their conversion was not real, then they are going to hell the same as all of the other non-believers out there. That is the difference between a true born-again believer, and someone who is a mere “cultural” Christian, or Christian “in name only,” or fake “Christian.”

The Bible teaches that mankind is utterly sinful. Paul writes in Romans 3:11-18, “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

So when I see on this forum a lot of space devoted to whether atheists or religious people are historically responsible for more evil in the world – my answer is BOTH. Most religious people are going to hell, because they follow a false religion and/or are fakes. And so-called “non-religious” people are certainly going to hell, such as the atheist, because they follow a false religion that denies the obvious existence of God – and for them, anything goes since they are “god” and get to make up the rules of “morality” to suit their own sinful lusts & desires & greed.

Mankind, both ostensibly religious & ostensibly non-religious, has committed much evil in this world & will continue to do so. That is because he is a sinner in need of a savior. So when you debate which side has committed the greater atrocity, you are inadvertently validating the very anthropological doctrine that Scripture teaches.

Basically if you don't believe in God then he is going to throw you in Hell to burn for all eternity and skin you alive forever. Don't worry, he still loves you, but you committed the unspeakable act of not blindly believing in him with zero evidence and thus you deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity! How dare you not believe in a God who provides no evidence for himself.

This God sounds like a bastard.

Oh and my religion is the only true religion in the world, all those other religions? Total bullshit, zero evidence, made up nonsense, they're all going to Hell as well. Though I bet there's many people from those religions also saying the exact same things about my religion with the exact same amount of "proof" but hey, only mine is the real truth!

I am Atheist I guess, though I suppose I'm actually closer to Agnostic Atheism, I do not believe there is a God but I don't claim to have 100% proof that there isn't one, or rather, some form of higher power, whether that be called a "God" or whatever, but I do not believe there is one, I think I'll die and that will be it, I don't particularly like that thought, it does suck but I can't do anything about it, I can only tell myself that, while it won't be me, I guess in some form or another I will still be 'part' of the universe even after death, that comforts me a little.

I'm not a religious hater though, I'm fine with religious people as long as they don't shove it in my face, I also don't think religion should have any part in Government, your belief should not be used to rip away rights from people, often tends to be women drawing the short end of the stick on that one because these religious texts came from shitty outdated times where women were treated like shit.

I'd really just prefer if people believed in "God" or a higher power without any of the religious text written by some dude thousands of years ago who didn't even know what stars were. But again, I don't think all aspects are terrible, I've met some really nice religious guys, I also think Church can play a good role in a community in helping people, as it should do, I know people who aren't really religious but go to Church with friends and they have fun there and it's a nice experience. More of that please, instead of using religion as an excuse to kill each other, or rip away rights from people.

And if you tell me that I am going to Hell for the simple act of not believing, I'm not going to take you seriously at all, I'll laugh at you and probably say some unpleasant words in response. I've also met some crazy religious folk in my time, like ones who claim gay people are destined for Hell but don't worry, they "still love them and want to save them" and all that makes me want to say is "Fuck off. Your religion doesn't give you an excuse to be a bigot" so I've met both sides of Christians but the extreme side was only Americans I knew, Lol.

I think it would be a lot better if people believed in God but didn't pretend to know whatever his "plan" is or take words written by another human from thousands of years ago as hard "fact", I don't really mind if people follow the Bible or W/E religious text as a general guideline but not as a hard rule because some of it is outdated in these books and come from a different time. As long as you aren't using it to do harm to people, or say hateful shit to people, then I'm fine with that! Imo if there is some "higher power" then I think odds are on it being something that doesn't care about humans or moved on a long time ago, and nobody will be right about what it is, or why it is. But I don't believe there is one so, Lol.

Just be a nice person. Telling people they're going to Hell to suffer forever for not believing isn't being a nice person, I'd argue it's not even being a nice Christian. You're an extremist Christian and many Christians would disagree with you. This is why I much prefer the UK's religious community, it is far more chill than America's, I've never seen UK Christians trying to cram their religion down my throat or just being assholes, they tend to be chill and friendly. I look at America though and see a lot of Christian extremists, they're ironically some of the most hateful people I've seen.

Catholic Church has a lot of problems, the obvious ones, but Pope Francis seemed for the most part like a decent guy who tried to do good, Pope Leo seems the same, they're far from perfect in my view, but I don't hate them, I think overall they do more good than bad, I'm fine with them existing and they're progressive by traditional Church standards so that's progress, Lol.

I'm happy for people who can find comfort in religion, I am happy that religion helps people, but just don't be a dick about it, don't try ram it down my throat, don't use it to attack others like so many religious people do, don't use it to try to force others to live your way of life (I.E. Religion in Government/Laws) and I likewise will try to not come in for no reason just to be condescending or attack you for having a belief, unless you say something really stupid and inflammatory first, then I will, Lol.