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Forums - Politics Discussion - Biden vs Trump 2024 Political Platforms, Policies and Issues

sundin13 said:
Shtinamin_ said:

This is my short and quick thoughts on what would happen. At the end of the what would happen, I try to see what each candidate is trying to value.

  • What would happen, if everyone was given 2 free years of community college?
    First,

9 million attend community college.
Community college is around $10,000/year.
A minimum of $90 Billion of taxes immediately, or $90 Billion is added to the deficit.

Second,

Germany has free college with 32% of their population attending. ~25M German citizens 
American would have about 32% of their population attending. ~102M US citizens
A $1.02 Trillion of taxes per year to support this, if ~32% of the US population took advantage of this free college.
There are 168 million taxpayers. The $1.02 trillion in taxes would be divided up and each hard working tax paying citizen would have to pay an additional ~$6,000 in taxes to counteract the deficit that would come from this.

Third,

Approximately, +102M people have an opportunity to get an associates degree. Which can help in getting a job.

This particular platform shows that President Biden cares for increased education, and lowering cost of increased education, and wants to help citizens get a job.

This type of analysis is extremely flawed because it relies on subjective interpretations and wild guesses to extrapolate to such a wild degree that the conclusions don't pass the smell test.

Lets break all of this down:

  • How many people attend community college? Depends how you count (and how the government counts). Per Federal data, about 6.7 million attend "public 2-year" institutions, which is likely the best pool for determining what the government considers eligible students. That number increases to 9 if you include certain things that likely wouldn't be included in this program (such as private institutions). We also have no way of knowing how many of these individuals would be eligible for this program.
  • How much does community college cost? Well, again, depends how you count. The proposals that I am familiar with however, are for free tuition. That means it would not cover housing and other expenses that often come with college. Average tuition is for in-state tuition at public 2-year institutions is about $3.5k
  • Using these numbers decreases costs to about $23billion (less than 1/3 of your initial estimate). 

  • How many Americans would enroll in free community college? By my understanding, you just assumed that 32% of Americans would be continually enrolled in these programs which should clearly not pass the smell test, but lets break it down a bit more first.
    • How many Germans are enrolled in free college: You seemed to have taken the data that roughly 32% of Germans have a degree as an assertion that 32% of Germans are continually enrolled in University, which is a wild assumption. In reality there are about 2.92 students enrolled in German Universities. That is about 3.4%, a far cry from 32%. 
    • Is it safe to assume that the number of Americans in community college would match Germany for some reason: No
    • So how many Americans would enroll in community college if it were free: It is hard to say. Maybe 23% increase in some areas, but for many, community college is already free. If you subtract California (which already has free community college), and you assume a 23% increase, you get about 1.2million more students. 
  • So how much does it cost now? About $27.7billion.

  • So, now lets talk about taxation! 
  • Who pays taxes: You're right that theres about 168 million people who pay income tax, but only 47% of government revenue comes from income taxes. 
  • Lets distribute the cost to the income tax payers. $13billion transferred across 168m people is an average of... $77. Thats about 1% of your estimate. 
  • But lets assume this all just goes to the debt. This would increase the debt by $27.7b/year, right? Well...no. Because college is an investment, it leads to increased wages, increased productivity, decreased criminality, and a bunch of other effects further down the line which counteracts that cost. One estimate I saw indicated that Community Colleges increased GDP by an estimated $898b/year. Assuming a 23% increase due to increased enrollment, that would mean adding an additional roughly $200b to the economy/year. That nets about $170b/year. 

Is that a reasonable assumption? Honestly, I don't know. I don't study this stuff. It is complicated. All these factors and variables pull against each other and impact other systems, to the extent that it becomes functionally impossible to just do napkin math estimates to determine the cost/benefits. 

I think you did a great job. I honestly just did quick google searches. And yes it is extremely complicated. Im glad we are discussing the what would happens, and the whys. :)



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.

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Shtinamin_ said:
Shtinamin_ said:

Now this is just to anyone that clicks this thread.

What would happen if a platform value became implemented?

For example: What would happen, if everyone was given 2 free years of community college? 
Another example: What would be the consequences, if there was a merit-based immigration system that protects American labor and promotes American values? 
Final in this specific post: What would be the result as a whole for America, if transgender women are restricted from competing in women’s sports?.

This is my short and quick thoughts on what would happen. At the end of the what would happen, I try to see what each candidate is trying to value.

  • What would happen, if everyone was given 2 free years of community college?
    First,

9 million attend community college.
Community college is around $10,000/year.
A minimum of $90 Billion of taxes immediately.

Second,

Germany has free college with 32% of their population attending. ~25M German citizens 
American would have about 32% of their population attending. ~102M US citizens
A $1.02 Trillion of taxes per year to support this, if ~32% of the US population took advantage of this free college.
There are 168 million taxpayers. The $1.02 trillion in taxes would be divided up and each hard working tax paying citizen would have to pay an additional ~$6,000 in taxes to counteract the deficit that would come from this.

Third,

Approximately, +102M people have an opportunity to get an associates degree. Which can help in getting a job.

This particular platform shows that President Biden cares for increased education, and lowering cost of increased education, and wants to help citizens get a job.

  • What would be the consequences, if there was a merit-based immigration system that protects American labor and promotes American values? 

First,

Every immigrant would be for the betterment of America.

Second,

Every immigrant would be legal.

Third,

More US born citizens would have an opportunity to learn trades, and manual jobs.
As of now there are approximately 31M immigrants that have labor force jobs in America. 
In 2021 17.4% of immigrants were in the labor force, that increased to 18.1% in 2022, and again to 19% in 2023.
In 2022 labor force participation from immigrants increased by 65.9%.

Fourth,

The country would grow stronger and unify. Leading to decreases of racism, prejudice, or pandering.

Fifth,

The outside borders would be overcrowded, and could be a long line to enter the US depending on how efficiently they approve or disapprove an immigrant.

This particular platform shows that President Trump cares for the quality of the US population. It also shows that he wants US citizens to have labor force jobs like, trades, manual jobs, agriculture, construction, etc.

  • What would be the result as a whole for America, if transgender women are restricted from competing in women’s sports?

First,

Women’s spaces will be protected. They will not have to have a mentality check, nor feel awkward when they get ready and dressed in the locker rooms.

Second,

They can actually be called women’s sports

Third,

We will most likely lead to the creation a trans’ sports section.

This shows that both President Biden and President Trump care for the safety of women. And want to keep gender-related sport groups separated.

Let me know what y'all think would happen? 

Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.

It seems like you are looking at some of these things from a narrow view. Like that’s not how taxes work at all, you’re making it sound like each tax payer is going to get a $6000 bill to pay when it would likely be funded or partially funded through taxing the rich & corporations.

Any unfunded portion would add to the national debt but that’s not necessarily a terrible thing. There is a reason why we’re suppose to measure in debt to GDP ratio rather than just freaking out over big numbers being scary. If we are adding to the debt by cutting taxes for rich people than that’s a poor use of debt, but if we’re adding to the debt by paying for things that will grow the economy, create jobs or provide direct relief to low income/middle class Americans.

Let’s compare it to an ordinary person. Not all debt is bad, taking out a loan in order to own a home, further your education or start a business can be worthwhile investments with long time benefits. On the other hand, taking out a loan in order to buy a bunch of hookers and cocaine is a poor use of debt.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

The Biden administration has brought the country to the brink of civil war. If this doesn't sober you up, nothing will.



Dante9 said:

The Biden administration has brought the country to the brink of civil war. If this doesn't sober you up, nothing will.

How?  Last I checked he had nothing to do with the stolen, fraud and the insurrection.

Refusing to accept the results of a free election is the most dangerous thing I've seen in my life time.

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 30 January 2024

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Dante9 said:

The Biden administration has brought the country to the brink of civil war. If this doesn't sober you up, nothing will.

That Abraham Lincoln guy brought the country to civil war. Should not have provoked the slave states.  

Or maybe we should stop negotiating with terrorists who keep threatening murder, violence and war, because they don't get pandered to anymore. 

Thanks Dante, I'm going to vote for Biden, even harder now. 



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As a non-American, I would like to know if Kennedy has any real chance, not of winning, but at least being relevant enough (maybe earn 20% of the vote) to make the election unpredictable. I've seen he is polling well and has followers, but I don't know if it's real or just an internet/poll illusion. If I were American, I would likely vote for him, as he's bringing an anti-polarization speech which the US needs with urgency, because in the eyes of the world, you're close to a civil war.



camilosanchez16 said:

As a non-American, I would like to know if Kennedy has any real chance, not of winning, but at least being relevant enough (maybe earn 20% of the vote) to make the election unpredictable. I've seen he is polling well and has followers, but I don't know if it's real or just an internet/poll illusion. If I were American, I would likely vote for him, as he's bringing an anti-polarization speech which the US needs with urgency, because in the eyes of the world, you're close to a civil war.

It is between Biden and trump.  



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zorg1000 said:
Shtinamin_ said:

This is my short and quick thoughts on what would happen. At the end of the what would happen, I try to see what each candidate is trying to value.

  • What would happen, if everyone was given 2 free years of community college?
    First,

9 million attend community college.
Community college is around $10,000/year.
A minimum of $90 Billion of taxes immediately.

Second,

Germany has free college with 32% of their population attending. ~25M German citizens 
American would have about 32% of their population attending. ~102M US citizens
A $1.02 Trillion of taxes per year to support this, if ~32% of the US population took advantage of this free college.
There are 168 million taxpayers. The $1.02 trillion in taxes would be divided up and each hard working tax paying citizen would have to pay an additional ~$6,000 in taxes to counteract the deficit that would come from this.

Third,

Approximately, +102M people have an opportunity to get an associates degree. Which can help in getting a job.

This particular platform shows that President Biden cares for increased education, and lowering cost of increased education, and wants to help citizens get a job.

  • What would be the consequences, if there was a merit-based immigration system that protects American labor and promotes American values? 

First,

Every immigrant would be for the betterment of America.

Second,

Every immigrant would be legal.

Third,

More US born citizens would have an opportunity to learn trades, and manual jobs.
As of now there are approximately 31M immigrants that have labor force jobs in America. 
In 2021 17.4% of immigrants were in the labor force, that increased to 18.1% in 2022, and again to 19% in 2023.
In 2022 labor force participation from immigrants increased by 65.9%.

Fourth,

The country would grow stronger and unify. Leading to decreases of racism, prejudice, or pandering.

Fifth,

The outside borders would be overcrowded, and could be a long line to enter the US depending on how efficiently they approve or disapprove an immigrant.

This particular platform shows that President Trump cares for the quality of the US population. It also shows that he wants US citizens to have labor force jobs like, trades, manual jobs, agriculture, construction, etc.

  • What would be the result as a whole for America, if transgender women are restricted from competing in women’s sports?

First,

Women’s spaces will be protected. They will not have to have a mentality check, nor feel awkward when they get ready and dressed in the locker rooms.

Second,

They can actually be called women’s sports

Third,

We will most likely lead to the creation a trans’ sports section.

This shows that both President Biden and President Trump care for the safety of women. And want to keep gender-related sport groups separated.

Let me know what y'all think would happen? 

Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.

It seems like you are looking at some of these things from a narrow view. Like that’s not how taxes work at all, you’re making it sound like each tax payer is going to get a $6000 bill to pay when it would likely be funded or partially funded through taxing the rich & corporations.

Any unfunded portion would add to the national debt but that’s not necessarily a terrible thing. There is a reason why we’re suppose to measure in debt to GDP ratio rather than just freaking out over big numbers being scary. If we are adding to the debt by cutting taxes for rich people than that’s a poor use of debt, but if we’re adding to the debt by paying for things that will grow the economy, create jobs or provide direct relief to low income/middle class Americans.

Let’s compare it to an ordinary person. Not all debt is bad, taking out a loan in order to own a home, further your education or start a business can be worthwhile investments with long time benefits. On the other hand, taking out a loan in order to buy a bunch of hookers and cocaine is a poor use of debt.

Yep I do agree that my perspective was narrow. I was trying to see a view as if I was someone that doesn’t get involved in politics. 
what are your thoughts on the other two positions I mentioned?

what are your thoughts on each individual position from the two presidents?

I enjoy the constructive feedback and having open communication. :)

Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.

TallSilhouette said:
Tober said:

"Trump has repeatedly bent over backwards to appease Putin. Russia didn't feel the need to invade anyone while there was a POTUS who would further their own interests for them. As soon as that stopped they went back to using force. If Trump were president right now though, he would let Russia march into Kyiv unopposed."

Appease Putin? By putting actions on them because of Crimea?

By literally asking Russia to interfere in our elections, completely looking the other way when they do and even put bounties on the heads of American soldiers, going out of his way to legitimize Putin's regime and delegitimize NATO, pressuring Ukraine to surrender to Russia, need I go on?

Tober said:

I am mentioning facts and you answer by mind reading. Mind reading does not exist. An political analyst on media channels cannot mind read as well, so don't take those to seriously.

I thought you were against removing context from replies. Is that just for thee but not for me? I already gave you a sourced example of Trump abandoning our allies that you disingenuously ignored. I don't have to read minds; Trump has stated repeatedly that he is against funding Ukraine's defense and thinks they should at the very least surrender the territory they've lost to Russia if not submit to them entirely. Denying funding (like he tried to extort them for before) would accomplish that on its own. By merely paying attention to his own words and actions you would know that Trump would quite literally let Russia march into Kyiv unopposed. Only one of us seems to actually be arguing in good faith, though.

I'm not an American citizen, so I don't have a vote in this. But America has the biggest influence in world peace, so I have an opinion on it.

Bush lied to invade Irak, causing a million death.

Under Oboma the Arab Spring started that got Lybia in ruins to this day, causing Mass human trafficking to Europe from Africa and gave rise to ISIS. And Crimea was annexed by Russia.

Trump's first foreign visit was with the Arab league, where he demanded people from their countries to stop funding ISIS. And ISIS folded soon after. Why did Obama not stop the funding for ISIS in the six years prior? I don't know, because mind reading does not exist.

Under Biden, The Northstream pipeline was blown up, The door to Nato for Ukraine was opened and Russia invaded Ukraine. Biden gives Ukraine just enough not to have Russia win, but never enough for Ukraine to win. Guaranteeing a perpetual war.

Bush, Obama, Biden all put policies in place for perpetual war somewhere in the world. Good for the industrial Military complex, bad for millions suffering.

For sure there are a million domestic reasons if you are an American citizen, who you would support or not. But as a non American the world felt safer with trump in office. I prefer pounding of own chest over dropping bombs any day in the week.

If you believe I'm arguing in good faith or not, is up to you. I would not know what I would have to gain if I would not be arguing in good faith though.

Last edited by Tober - on 30 January 2024

Shtinamin_ said:
zorg1000 said:

Yep I do agree that my perspective was narrow. I was trying to see a view as if I was someone that doesn’t get involved in politics. 
what are your thoughts on the other two positions I mentioned?

what are your thoughts on each individual position from the two presidents?

“this particular platform shows that President Trump cares for the quality of the US population. It also shows that he wants US citizens to have labor force jobs like, trades, manual jobs, agriculture, construction, etc.”

I don’t mean to sound like a dick but my thoughts are that you have no idea what you are talking about. Trump and the GOP do not care about the quality of the US population. This is the guy who told people not to wear masks, to inject bleach and take horse dewormer during Covid and repeatedly called to reopen everything before we could do so safely. His immigration policy basically comes down to, black/brown/poor? No entry. White/wealthy? Come on in!

You say Trump supports trades/manual labor jobs but it’s Biden who signed the Infrastructure bill into law that is investing in fixing roads, bridges, ports, railways, electric grid, provide clean drinking water, expand public transit, expand broadband access, improve transportation safety, etc. It also has provisions that steel must be American made rather than imported. It was also Biden who signed the CHIPS & Science Act that gives incentives to semiconductor manufacturers to build factories in the US. He also signed the Inflation Reduction Act that gives tax credits for EV vehicles with the provision that they are assembled in the US. Between these three bills, we are seeing massive support for manual/trade jobs like general laborers, iron workers, pavers, masons, metallurgists, assembly workers, truck drivers, rail workers, heavy equipment operators, electricians, pipe fitters, engineers, etc. Many of these jobs don’t require a college degree and are well paying union jobs.

Basically Trump is all talk as he repeatedly said he would have “Infrastructure Week” and pass a big infrastructure bill while Biden has actually delivered on this front while also showing support for labor unions like rail and auto workers.

As for the other topic, it’s very transphobic.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.