By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Biden vs Trump 2024 Political Platforms, Policies and Issues

the-pi-guy said:
Chrkeller said:

If liberal social policies were as effective as claimed, California would have so many issues... just saying.

A big problem with some of these states, is hypocrisy.  

A major problem with California is people don't want to zone for more housing. Your tiny garage is worth a million dollars because land is in demand, do you want to give up that worth so that people stop being homeless? 

Despite being a blue state, Washington has one of the most regressive tax systems in the country. 

Seems to me the top states in homeless are all liberal....  and they are all expensive as crap.  Just makes me wonder how successful these social programs are.  I'm far from an expert, but one of the reasons I lean towards republican is because I wouldn't consider living in California, New York, DC, etc.  Meanwhile I would happily live in NC, SC, etc.  There does seem to be a correlation.  

edit

I suppose my point is all these great programs don't seem to be resulting in great places to live.  Perhaps we should wonder a bit more.  I also live in Europe and it isn't what people think it is.  Still a great place, don't get me wrong.  But there are some major issues, like needing private insurance because national insurance has 6 month wait times.  The grass isn't as green as many think it is.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 16 July 2024

i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED

Around the Network
Chrkeller said:

Seems to me the top states in homeless are all liberal....  and they are all expensive as crap.  Just makes me wonder how successful these social programs are.  I'm far from an expert, but one of the reasons I lean towards republican is because I wouldn't consider living in California, New York, DC, etc.  Meanwhile I would happily live in NC, SC, etc.  There does seem to be a correlation.    

Firstly, correlation isn't causation.

Ignoring a lot of issues. If you were a homeless person, would you rather be in a Republican or a Democratic state? Probably a Democratic state, because they are more likely to offer more support.

Some states are going to be more dangerous to live in as a homeless person, less shelter from deadly cold, deadly heat, not to mention other disasters like hurricanes and tornadoes. It could be possible for one state to have more homeless people, because more homeless die in the other one. 

That's not really a great result. 

Secondly, as I said, this has nothing to do with liberal policies. It's NIMBY Democrats pushing conservative policies. 

California has a massive population, a lot of people want to live there. And there's a lot of data showing how house building hasn't supported that. Lots of competition on the buying side, very little competition on the selling side, means high prices, which contributes to homeless people. 

Chrkeller said:

I suppose my point is all these great programs don't seem to be resulting in great places to live.  Perhaps we should wonder a bit more.  I also live in Europe and it isn't what people think it is.  Still a great place, don't get me wrong.  But there are some major issues, like needing private insurance because national insurance has 6 month wait times.  The grass isn't as green as many think it is.  

No healthcare system is perfect.

Even very similar healthcare systems have huge differences.

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance_eur-2018-29-en.pdf?expires=1721148254&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=67392878DD90ACA0F270A72FD5C5F9AF

Every healthcare system has different outcomes and different costs, despite a lot of these technically having similar healthcare systems.

Sometimes culture plays a part.

Sometimes it's because small changes in the exact same system can make big changes.

On the matter of "grass being greener", it's a matter of priorities. Being able to go to the doctor at all, even if it takes 6 months might be considered preferable to having medical debt or having your job attached to your health insurance. I would wager that it's preferable for the vast majority of people, unless you're wealthy and can get into the doctor faster and don't have to worry about medical debt.  

Personally I'm well aware that

- short of major changes to the US healthcare system, we're probably not going to save much money in the short term

- we also have worse health outcomes due to a more sedentary lifestyle than most of Europe.

- wait times would increase

I think the pros of a public healthcare system are worth it. And I think if people are more willing to make changes, then we can make better efforts to ensure that wait times don't go up drastically.

Last edited by the-pi-guy - on 16 July 2024

the-pi-guy said:
Chrkeller said:

Seems to me the top states in homeless are all liberal....  and they are all expensive as crap.  Just makes me wonder how successful these social programs are.  I'm far from an expert, but one of the reasons I lean towards republican is because I wouldn't consider living in California, New York, DC, etc.  Meanwhile I would happily live in NC, SC, etc.  There does seem to be a correlation.    

Firstly, correlation isn't causation.

Ignoring a lot of issues. If you were a homeless person, would you rather be in a Republican or a Democratic state? Probably a Democratic state, because they are more likely to offer more support.

Some states are going to be more dangerous to live in as a homeless person, less shelter from deadly cold, deadly heat, not to mention other disasters like hurricanes and tornadoes. It could be possible for one state to have more homeless people, because more homeless die in the other one. 

That's not really a great result. 

Secondly, as I said, this has nothing to do with liberal policies. It's NIMBY Democrats pushing conservative policies. 

California has a massive population, a lot of people want to live there. And there's a lot of data showing how house building hasn't supported that. Lots of competition on the buying side, very little competition on the selling side, means high prices, which contributes to homeless people. 

Chrkeller said:

I suppose my point is all these great programs don't seem to be resulting in great places to live.  Perhaps we should wonder a bit more.  I also live in Europe and it isn't what people think it is.  Still a great place, don't get me wrong.  But there are some major issues, like needing private insurance because national insurance has 6 month wait times.  The grass isn't as green as many think it is.  

No healthcare system is perfect.

Even very similar healthcare systems have huge differences.

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance_eur-2018-29-en.pdf?expires=1721148254&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=67392878DD90ACA0F270A72FD5C5F9AF

Every healthcare system has different outcomes and different costs, despite a lot of these technically having similar healthcare systems.

Sometimes culture plays a part.

Sometimes it's because small changes in the exact same system can make big changes.

On the matter of "grass being greener", it's a matter of priorities. Being able to go to the doctor at all, even if it takes 6 months might be considered preferable to having medical debt or having your job attached to your health insurance. I would wager that it's preferable for the vast majority of people, unless you're wealthy and can get into the doctor faster and don't have to worry about medical debt.  

Personally I'm well aware that

- short of major changes to the US healthcare system, we're probably not going to save much money in the short term

- we also have worse health outcomes due to a more sedentary lifestyle than most of Europe.

- wait times would increase

I think the pros of a public healthcare system are worth it. And I think if people are more willing to make changes, then we can make better efforts to ensure that wait times don't go up drastically.

So homeless people are moving to blue states.  Lol.  That was pretty good.  

And at the end of the day if social policies worked like people think....  blue states wouldn't be in shape they are currently in.  The top 5 homeless states are all blue....  



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED

Chrkeller said:

So homeless people are moving to blue states.  Lol.  That was pretty good.  

And at the end of the day if social policies worked like people think....  blue states wouldn't be in shape they are currently in.  The top 5 homeless states are all blue....  

That's not quite what I said, but whatever. 

Again, at the end of the day, those social policies effectively don't exist.



Chrkeller said:

If liberal social policies were as effective as claimed, California would have so many issues... just saying.

Like what specifically? But that can also be turned back around, if conservative social & fiscal policies were as effective as claimed than why do red states have the lowest median incomes, the highest infant/maternal mortality rates, lowest life expectancy, highest rates of gun deaths, highest uninsured rates?



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Around the Network

Top 2 states people are leaving: California and New York

Top 2 states people are moving to: Texas and Florida

Lol.  



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED

LegitHyperbole said:
zorg1000 said:

I’ll give you Gaza, Biden’s handling of the war has been awful but considering that Trump is using “Palestinian” as a slur, I can’t imagine he policies will be any more peaceful.

So both suck when it comes to Gaza, what about every other issue?

Agreed.

I think there are varying degrees and many layers to any issue so I tend to agree and disagree with certain aspects of an issue so it makes talking about my politics rather boring for Americans and then ye lot end up hating me on both sides because I won't fall into either camp. It's not worth the effort. 

Then why even join a topic about political platforms, policies and issues? You came in and said some vague things and when asked to elaborate, you go “it’s not worth the effort.”



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Chrkeller said:

Top 2 states people are leaving: California and New York

Top 2 states people are moving to: Texas and Florida

Lol.  

Well NIMBY (conservative) policies are ruining California and New York. 

A lot of Texas cities are blue, and Texas is slowly becoming bluer. 



the-pi-guy said:
Chrkeller said:

Top 2 states people are leaving: California and New York

Top 2 states people are moving to: Texas and Florida

Lol.  

Well NIMBY (conservative) policies are ruining California and New York. 

A lot of Texas cities are blue, and Texas is slowly becoming bluer. 

Of course.  People are leaving conservative California for the liberal Texas.  Lol.

Been fun, but Hades is calling.  



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED

zorg1000 said:
LegitHyperbole said:

Agreed.

I think there are varying degrees and many layers to any issue so I tend to agree and disagree with certain aspects of an issue so it makes talking about my politics rather boring for Americans and then ye lot end up hating me on both sides because I won't fall into either camp. It's not worth the effort. 

Then why even join a topic about political platforms, policies and issues? You came in and said some vague things and when asked to elaborate, you go “it’s not worth the effort.”

Fine. Quiz me, what other issues?