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CosmicSex said:
KLAMarine said:

What parts in particular do you find objectionable?

https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/subject-areas/social-studies/african-amer-hist.stml

Perhaps you should review the new standards they just approved:

https://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/20653/urlt/6-4.pdf

Check out page six.

'Instruction includes how slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be
applied for their personal benefit'

So the controversy is that slaves did not develop skills during their servitude?



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KLAMarine said:
CosmicSex said:

Perhaps you should review the new standards they just approved:

https://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/20653/urlt/6-4.pdf

Check out page six.

'Instruction includes how slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be
applied for their personal benefit'

So the controversy is that slaves did not develop skills during their servitude?

No, the controversy is that an attempt is being made to justify, or both-sides slavery.  Slavery was not a job training program.  It was an institution in which the enslaved lost all personal freedom and were subjugated as personal property.  There is no tangible personal benefit to being forced to do a job for someone with no pay and no right to leave. A lot of slave were purchased for the skills that they already possessed. 

Last edited by CosmicSex - on 25 July 2023

KLAMarine said:
CosmicSex said:

Perhaps you should review the new standards they just approved:

https://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/20653/urlt/6-4.pdf

Check out page six.

'Instruction includes how slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be
applied for their personal benefit'

So the controversy is that slaves did not develop skills during their servitude?

Firstly would you feel okay if these sections also existed:

- "instruction includes how 9/11 caused there to be more space in New York City, which in some cases allowed new buildings to be built."

- "instruction includes how the Holocaust caused Jewish scientists to flee Germany, which in some cases gave benefits to other nations."

There's a history of trying to make slavery seem like it was actually a benefit to black people; in an attempt to downplay evil. "We took them from living in huts to living in cities"

Trying to justify some of the most horrific events in history is evil. Florida has taken a notable step to codify that evil in their education system.  



CosmicSex said:

I don't understand why they are so preoccupied with hurting black people. Is there really nothing else for these grown people to do? Are they just a bunch of retired racists with too much free time?

They act like they are obligated to spread as much hate a possible. It's really disturbing. Didn't they just OD on Trans and LGBT hate?

Why not focus on making people's life... better.

At least for Ron, well its his brand as you can say.  He won Florida by using the culture war so he is taking it to the national stage.  Its all about the kids and LGBTQ people grooming children to be homosexual or Black education having to much woke parts in it.  It just seems that Ron really doesn't have any real policy that is geared to help but is more focused on choosing which minority group to go after.  It really does not seem like conservatives are really buying it as his poll numbers are not looking great but its early in the game so who knows what will happen.  Maybe they can hire someone to display a LGBTQ flag at each of his events so they can kick that person out and then go on about its all about family and the kids.  Think of the kids everyone.



KLAMarine said:
CosmicSex said:

Perhaps you should review the new standards they just approved:

https://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/20653/urlt/6-4.pdf

Check out page six.

'Instruction includes how slaves developed skills which, in some instances, could be
applied for their personal benefit'

So the controversy is that slaves did not develop skills during their servitude?

Here is a question, do you believe it to be true.



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the-pi-guy said:
KLAMarine said:

So the controversy is that slaves did not develop skills during their servitude?

Firstly would you feel okay if these sections also existed:

- "instruction includes how 9/11 caused there to be more space in New York City, which in some cases allowed new buildings to be built."

- "instruction includes how the Holocaust caused Jewish scientists to flee Germany, which in some cases gave benefits to other nations."

There's a history of trying to make slavery seem like it was actually a benefit to black people; in an attempt to downplay evil. "We took them from living in huts to living in cities"

Trying to justify some of the most horrific events in history is evil. Florida has taken a notable step to codify that evil in their education system.  

I think the point of Jewish scientists fleeing Germany WAS beneficial: it robbed Nazi Germany of talent and benefited The Allies in their fight against The Axis.

Machiavellian said:
KLAMarine said:

So the controversy is that slaves did not develop skills during their servitude?

Here is a question, do you believe it to be true.

I think people can learn new things even in dire circumstances. There are certainly strong incentives to do so in bad times.

I recall reading of North Koreans learning to survive during the famine in the 90s. The Soviet Union learned to fight when it was invaded by The Nazis. Of course, as a whole, these were bad times but I don't think it's controversial to acknowledge silver linings.



KLAMarine said:

 Of course, as a whole, these were bad times but I don't think it's controversial to acknowledge silver linings.

Yes it is controversial to justify and/or downplay atrocities.

The issue at hand is largely one of framing, it's not an issue about the facts.

I think most evil things happen, not because so many people want to do evil, but because they are convinced / they convince themselves that some evil thing actually has some good. And I don't think that's a controversial take.

A lot of authoritarian propaganda is centered around things like:

- downplaying atrocities (Neo-nazis today pretend the Holocaust didn't happen or wasn't as bad as claimed; China covers up their wrongdoing)

- insisting that there were good reasons for something (Nazi propaganda would often center around Jews being bad somehow)

Having the state downplay an atrocity like slavery, is at minimum concerning, if not outright terrible. 



Another thing to consider when talking about the silver lining of atrocities is it's pretty important who is talking about it. If a neutral third party tells me this it's different than when someone with a vested interest tells me. If Germany included the silver lining of the Holocaust in their curriculum that hits different than if someone did the same elsewhere. Similarly when an agent of the US government says the shitty slavery thing the US did had some upsides that's different than if they teach that in Switzerland.



...

the-pi-guy said:
KLAMarine said:

So the controversy is that slaves did not develop skills during their servitude?

Firstly would you feel okay if these sections also existed:

- "instruction includes how 9/11 caused there to be more space in New York City, which in some cases allowed new buildings to be built."

- "instruction includes how the Holocaust caused Jewish scientists to flee Germany, which in some cases gave benefits to other nations."  

Auschwitz Memorial criticizes Fox News’ Greg Gutfeld for saying Jews survived Nazi camps by being ‘useful’

>“While it is accurate to acknowledge that some Jews may have survived temporarily due to their perceived usefulness, it is crucial to remember that the Holocaust was a systematic genocide with the ultimate aim of exterminating the entire Jewish population,” the memorial said in part. “It would be more appropriate to say that some Jews survived the Holocaust because they were considered temporarily useful, and the circumstances of the Nazi regime’s collapse prevented their murder.” 



the-pi-guy said:

Auschwitz Memorial criticizes Fox News’ Greg Gutfeld for saying Jews survived Nazi camps by being ‘useful’

>“While it is accurate to acknowledge that some Jews may have survived temporarily due to their perceived usefulness, it is crucial to remember that the Holocaust was a systematic genocide with the ultimate aim of exterminating the entire Jewish population,” the memorial said in part. “It would be more appropriate to say that some Jews survived the Holocaust because they were considered temporarily useful, and the circumstances of the Nazi regime’s collapse prevented their murder.” 

Oh for the love of all things good.   I have to admit, I don't understand the mentality of people who need to comfort themselves by downplay the suffering of others.  Whatever fantasy they are trying to create isn't worth the act of having to degrade yourself to that extent.  Clearly, they are creating situations where atrocities can be repeated.  Who would even want that?  Even with the slightest bit of imagination, you would be able to realize that you wouldn't want those things done to you.  Decency and compassion aren't complex ideas:  they are natural conclusions to logical thinking.