By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - The US is ranked as a 'Flawed Democracy', what needs to change?

the-pi-guy said:
Paatar said:

Quotes don't mean anything other than quoting something. there are better ways to explain your meaning. Once again though, people who believe certain people shouldn't exist is not exclusive to the right. 

Quotation marks are used for plenty of things.

Quotation marks within an emphatic context should tell readers that the content in quotes means something other than what it usually would. In many cases, one might even interpret text within emphatic quotation marks as a wink to the audience

Quotation marks, also known as inverted commas, are normally used for quotation, as their American name suggests, or to mark a title (book, film, etc), or to enclose a foreign, technical, or otherwise potentially unfamiliar word. Standard use of these marks encompasses variation: they can be single or double, and may be punctuated differently around stops, depending on local conventions. Quotation marks can also highlight that a word is being used somehow peculiarly – a writer may wish to indicate irony, inaccuracy, or scepticism, for example; used this way, they’re called scare quotes. In the line: At the party I met a teacher, a journalist, and an ‘artist’, the scare quotes around artist act as a distancing device, probably signalling doubt about the person’s credentials as an artist. The effect is similar to the Irish phrase mar dhea.

Which here means, people call themselves conservative, and they hold these views. 

Paatar said:

Same thing happened with the "Don't say gay" bill--where the bill never even mentioned the word gay. It just prohibits the talk about sexual conduct, both straight and gay, in 3rd grade and lower classrooms. Which is something all of us should agree with--kids that young do not need that stuff in their classrooms. 

It does a lot more than that.

The actual bill

SEXUALLY-ORIENTED MATERIAL.—The term ‘‘sexually-oriented material’’ means any depiction, description, or simulation of sexual activity, any lewd or lascivious depiction or description of human genitals, or any topic involving gender identity, gender dysphoria, transgenderism, sexual orientation, or related subjects

In other words, the bill covers gender dysphoria, and sexual orientation.

There's a pretty massive difference between gender identity, sexual orientation and sexual activity.

Paatar said:

Give me a specific example of something you want me to rebuttal, and I'll provide it. 

You claimed that tolerance sometimes meant intolerance, and vice versa. Give an example.

Alright—you know exactly what I mean by explaining things better without using quotation marks. The only thing that can be done when you use them is for the meaning to be inferred. I cannot know what you mean when they’re used as I cannot read your mind and your intentions may differ. Don’t be petty. 

Being straight is included in sexual orientation. I know that sexual orientation, gender dysphoria and gender identity are different things and I never claimed otherwise. The bill does NOT target those groups. It is an all encompassing bill that prohibits that kind of discussion in those classrooms from every view point. I only used it to prove my point that people can be easily manipulated into voting a certain way. And once again, the age at which it prohibits that conversation in the classroom is the key important note. 

I never claimed that intolerance means tolerance. Re-read my statement. 
I’m not going to give an example because I don’t think this conversation is going anywhere constructive and I would like to end it. I’d encourage you to think outside the box and think of an example for yourself.

Last edited by Paatar - on 25 October 2022

[Switch Friend code: 3909-3991-4970]

[Xbox Live: JissuWolfe]

[PSN: Jissu]

Around the Network
Paatar said:

 I know that sexual orientation, gender dysphoria and gender identity are different things and I never claimed otherwise. The bill does NOT target those groups. It is an all encompassing bill that prohibits that kind of discussion in those classrooms from every view point. I only used it to prove my point that people can be easily manipulated into voting a certain way. 

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I was quoting the bill, and pointing out that it covers more things than "sexual conduct".

This entire section is from the bill:

SEXUALLY-ORIENTED MATERIAL.—The term ‘‘sexually-oriented material’’ means any depiction, description, or simulation of sexual activity, any lewd or lascivious depiction or description of human genitals, or any topic involving gender identity, gender dysphoria, transgenderism, sexual orientation, or related subjects

It absolutely does target those groups. 

It's literally written in black and white, regardless of what anyone claims. 

Paatar said:

im not going to give an example because I don’t think this conversation is going anywhere constructive and I would like to end it. I’d encourage you to think outside the box and think of an example for yourself. 

I was a conservative for most of my younger life. I continue to talk a lot with conservatives so I can continue to understand where they're coming from. 

"I never claimed that intolerance means tolerance. Re-read my statement."

I apologize. I was responding to when you said this:

"What you define as intolerant, others define as tolerant, and Vice versa."

Last edited by the-pi-guy - on 25 October 2022

simple don't have idiots vote



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.

Paatar said:
the-pi-guy said:

According to who? <—— literally the majority of gay people/people on the left. I’ve gotten more hate from them than anyone on the right or who is religious. 

Paatar said:

(Hint, diversity and inclusiveness can’t be achieved if you don’t include those you disagree with) 

Hint: intolerance and tolerance are opposites. You can't have a tolerant world by propping up intolerant viewpoints.

There's no issue with people having "conservative" views. Lower taxes, that's fine.

But if those "conservative" views are opposed to other people existing, that can't work.

You do realize you make up the whole “conversatives don’t believe certain people should exist” thing, right? It’s a loaded and over exaggerated way to express being against the right so that you come out morally on top because they believe that views that I’m assuming you appear to have are intolerant.  

while yes, there are people who believe certain people shouldn’t exist, those people are on all sides of the political spectrum, not just the right. The majority of people on the right do not care how people live. 

What you define as intolerant, others define as tolerant, and Vice versa. Setting up boundaries and lines in the political and social world is not intolerant—going too far with certain ideas has more negative ramifications than most people understand. 

Really? Which supreme court judge said they would come after gay marriage? Who calls trans people groomers? Who thinks Muslims and Latinos and black people are subhuman? Who tries to make it harder for minorities to vote? Who overturned row v wade? 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

kirby007 said:

simple don't have idiots vote

Or dodon'let anti democratic buffoons run in elections. 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Around the Network
kirby007 said:

simple don't have idiots vote

For that you need to overhaul the education system. But for that to happen you need a democratic government, we the people for all the people.

Typical catch 22.



The US isn't the oldest democracy. Switzerland exists. Plenty of older democracies that don't exist anymore too, but even if you're only counting continuing ones, the US still isn't the oldest.

As for how to improve it, simple, make it more democratic. Get rid of the electoral college stuff and just have a standard vote for the president. Whoever gets >50% of the votes is president, simple. No giving more weight to votes from some states than those in other states.



Eagle367 said:
kirby007 said:

simple don't have idiots vote

Or dodon'let anti democratic buffoons run in elections. 

That itself would actually be anti-democratic though. Plus, who decides who's fit to run or not? You're just opening the system up for corruption and manipulation by allowing something like that.



Ka-pi96 said:
Eagle367 said:

Or dodon'let anti democratic buffoons run in elections. 

That itself would actually be anti-democratic though. Plus, who decides who's fit to run or not? You're just opening the system up for corruption and manipulation by allowing something like that.

No it won't.  Democracy must be protected from anti democratic action. Like a person running on the platform of ending future elections shouldn't be run. You can't let a monarchist run either or a fascist. It's not about fit to run, it's about those that seek to overturn democracy. If you don't,  your democracy won't survive. Just look at how orban did it, hoe bolsonaro wants to do it, how erdogan did it and how modhi is doing it. You are dooming your democracies if you let it happen. And that's what's happening in the US.  Anti democratic people are running and destroying US democracy.

It's the same thing as allowing intolerant people for tolerances sake. You think being tolerant of nazi ideology will end well? Systems can't survive absolutism and as many have said "tolerance requires us to be intolerant towards intolerance". As many Americans have learned, many systems require the goodwill of people in power to do their job. Systems cannot be removed from the people in them. Democracy won't function if Anti democratic forces are allowed to destroy it from within.  You can't have freedom without restricting some freedoms from some people. 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

What's the point in being heard if they don't, or purposely won't, understand?
And then what?