By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - The US is ranked as a 'Flawed Democracy', what needs to change?

Eagle367 said:
bdbdbd said:

You know, you seem to be the one that has anti-democratic sentiment. The current US system HAS the commission that decides the candidate's eligibility, which is the electoral college - this actually is one of the things that makes US a flawed democracy. All your roadblocks to protect democracy, are just ones that aim to dismantle it. 

Actually the roadblocks prevented a dismantling of democracy in the US. The electoral college sucks and isn't a protection. But the actual protections stopped Trump from taking over. You are just construing my argument in the worst light and joining it to an anti democratic institution like the electoral college. We both know the electoral college does more than determine eligibility.  It essentially selects the leader. It doesn't dictate who can run, it dictates who wins and Americans vote for the electors in the EC, not directly the president. A completely different thing from what I said. You could have pointed to BC NDP if you actually wanted a better example.

So, US has a roadblock to protect democracy, but because people you don't like get into power, you think it doesn't work. So you would need a system that prevents people you don't like from getting into power, to protect democracy, because everyone who doesn't think like you, are anti-democratic?



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

Around the Network
bdbdbd said:
Eagle367 said:

Actually the roadblocks prevented a dismantling of democracy in the US. The electoral college sucks and isn't a protection. But the actual protections stopped Trump from taking over. You are just construing my argument in the worst light and joining it to an anti democratic institution like the electoral college. We both know the electoral college does more than determine eligibility.  It essentially selects the leader. It doesn't dictate who can run, it dictates who wins and Americans vote for the electors in the EC, not directly the president. A completely different thing from what I said. You could have pointed to BC NDP if you actually wanted a better example.

So, US has a roadblock to protect democracy, but because people you don't like get into power, you think it doesn't work. So you would need a system that prevents people you don't like from getting into power, to protect democracy, because everyone who doesn't think like you, are anti-democratic?

I don't like Joe Biden and he doesn't think like me...... so no. He is not anti-democratic. That's not what I said. Please don't say things without thinking it through and don't associate things I didn't say to me.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

I think the real problem is a loud minority claim the US wants all these drastic changes to our ways of working. When the reality is the majority actually don't want change. This isn't being cascaded properly by the media, thus people think the US is a bigger mess than it actually is. As example, most people do not want universal healthcare. Most people do not want gun restrictions. Most people do not free college. And people aren't as pro choice as one might think.



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED

Chrkeller said:

I think the real problem is a loud minority claim the US wants all these drastic changes to our ways of working. When the reality is the majority actually don't want change. This isn't being cascaded properly by the media, thus people think the US is a bigger mess than it actually is. As example, most people do not want universal healthcare. Most people do not want gun restrictions. Most people do not free college. And people aren't as pro choice as one might think.

And what are your sources... for any of that?

You sound like a generic conspiracy theorist. You started with blaming the media and then making multiple claims without establishing a source or logic for any of those.  Your claims vary greatly having little in common except for one thing. Republican talking points.

Specially in the fact of polls and data that already exist. Specially the ones that show people ARE pro choice. As Kansas showed.  Which is why what should be an absolute Republican landslide is very much not because they are the dog that caught the car.

Last edited by Bandorr - on 02 November 2022

You are bound to love Earthbound.

Bandorr said:
Chrkeller said:

I think the real problem is a loud minority claim the US wants all these drastic changes to our ways of working. When the reality is the majority actually don't want change. This isn't being cascaded properly by the media, thus people think the US is a bigger mess than it actually is. As example, most people do not want universal healthcare. Most people do not want gun restrictions. Most people do not free college. And people aren't as pro choice as one might think.

And what are your sources... for any of that?

You sound like a generic conspiracy theorist. You started with blaming the media and then making multiple claims without establishing a source or logic for any of those.  Your claims vary greatly having little in common except for one thing. Republican talking points.

Specially in the fact of polls and data that already exist. Specially the ones that show people ARE pro choice. As Kansas showed.  Which is why what should be an absolute Republican landslide is very much not because they are the dog that caught the car.

Being born and raised here.  Knowing how my friends and family vote.  Oh and I am a registered democrat and vote as such.  I'm just telling the truth, which upsets people.  The core beliefs of the average american isn't what people think it is.  This is especially true in the mid-west and south.  

Personally I think Republicans pick up sets this November...  if the average american believed what people think they do....  republicans would get decimated at the polls...  fact is, Republicans are not and are doing quite well over the last decade.  

Edit

As an example, the media makes it out as though everybody hates Trump and he is despised.  While Biden won the election, with me voting for him (for the record, it was pretty close in popular vote.  Clearly Trump isn't as widely hated as he is made out to be.  Granted I don't understand it, because I'm not a fan...  but he did get 75,000,000 votes....    

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 02 November 2022

i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED

Around the Network
Chrkeller said:
Bandorr said:

And what are your sources... for any of that?

You sound like a generic conspiracy theorist. You started with blaming the media and then making multiple claims without establishing a source or logic for any of those.  Your claims vary greatly having little in common except for one thing. Republican talking points.

Specially in the fact of polls and data that already exist. Specially the ones that show people ARE pro choice. As Kansas showed.  Which is why what should be an absolute Republican landslide is very much not because they are the dog that caught the car.

Being born and raised here.  Knowing how my friends and family vote.  Oh and I am a registered democrat and vote as such.  I'm just telling the truth, which upsets people.  The core beliefs of the average american isn't what people think it is.  This is especially true in the mid-west and south.  

Personally I think Republicans pick up sets this November...  if the average american believed what people think they do....  republicans would get decimated at the polls...  fact is, Republicans are not and are doing quite well over the last decade.  

Edit

As an example, the media makes it out as though everybody hates Trump and he is despised.  While Biden won the election, with me voting for him (for the record, it was pretty close in popular vote.  Clearly Trump isn't as widely hated as he is made out to be.  Granted I don't understand it, because I'm not a fan...  but he did get 75,000,000 votes....    

You talk about the vocal minority and your source is... your family and friends? So you talk about the vocal minority and your source is.. probably less than 100 people?

"I'm just telling the truth, which upsets people" again generic conspiracy theorist.

You are claiming other people are vocal minorities but the sources you use to claim that.. are people you know.  Which is you know.. a very small faction of the majority know better as - a minority.

Last edited by Bandorr - on 02 November 2022

You are bound to love Earthbound.

Bandorr said:
Chrkeller said:

Being born and raised here.  Knowing how my friends and family vote.  Oh and I am a registered democrat and vote as such.  I'm just telling the truth, which upsets people.  The core beliefs of the average american isn't what people think it is.  This is especially true in the mid-west and south.  

Personally I think Republicans pick up sets this November...  if the average american believed what people think they do....  republicans would get decimated at the polls...  fact is, Republicans are not and are doing quite well over the last decade.  

Edit

As an example, the media makes it out as though everybody hates Trump and he is despised.  While Biden won the election, with me voting for him (for the record, it was pretty close in popular vote.  Clearly Trump isn't as widely hated as he is made out to be.  Granted I don't understand it, because I'm not a fan...  but he did get 75,000,000 votes....    

You talk about the vocal minority and your source is... your family and friends? So you talk about the vocal minority and your source is.. probably less than 100 people?

"I'm just telling the truth, which upsets people" again generic conspiracy theorist.

So you are basically claiming what other people are. A vocal minority.

Cool just checking. I'm out.

Or you could just look at election results.  If people were anti gun, pro free college, universal healthcare, etc....  elections results would be a lot different.  Again, the evidence is clear, for those who care to look.  The Republican and Democratic platforms are wildly different, but elections are split and tend to be close for POTUS.  But hey, let us see what happens this November, when the masses vote.  



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED

Chrkeller said:

I think the real problem is a loud minority claim the US wants all these drastic changes to our ways of working. When the reality is the majority actually don't want change. This isn't being cascaded properly by the media, thus people think the US is a bigger mess than it actually is. As example, most people do not want universal healthcare. Most people do not want gun restrictions. Most people do not free college. And people aren't as pro choice as one might think.

Most people do want these things depending on how they're asked

What the exact question that gets asked is important. If you ask if Americans want more gun restrictions for mentally ill people, the vast majority of Americans support that restriction. If you ask for universal background checks, the vast majority of Americans (Republicans and Democrats, both above 70%) support that.

If you start asking about blanket gun bans, then you start getting a lot more pushback against that, especially amongst Republicans.

Gallup polling

Vox polling on Republicans and Democrats

It's a similar trend with healthcare. It depends on what question you actually ask. If you ask about a single payer system, there's a lot more pushback for that. If you ask if there should be a medicare/medicaid option available for everyone, there's substantially more support for that.

A bigger issue at hand is that when you bring up something like "gun restrictions", people tend to assume that means the absolute most disagreeable thing it could possibly mean.   

Chrkeller said:

Being born and raised here.  Knowing how my friends and family vote.  Oh and I am a registered democrat and vote as such.  I'm just telling the truth, which upsets people.  The core beliefs of the average american isn't what people think it is.  This is especially true in the mid-west and south.  

Personally I think Republicans pick up sets this November...  if the average american believed what people think they do....  republicans would get decimated at the polls...  fact is, Republicans are not and are doing quite well over the last decade.  

No one here is upset by the truth. But these things are more complicated than you're talking about. 

A major issue at hand here is that there is a big difference between what most Americans think Republicans and Democrats are, and what the reality actually is. 


Republican voters tend to be more moderate than Republican politicians.

Now, a new study finds that members of Congress also believe that they represent staunchly conservative electorates that do not actually exist.

If you actually ask people about their positions, a lot of times they have positions that are very in line with a typical Democratic politician, and yet they vote Republican. And then they start talking about Democrats, and they have very extreme views on where they think Democrats are.

There is a big perception difference between where the typical Democratic and Republican politician is, and where their voters think they are. Republicans think Republican politicians are less extreme than they really are, and they think Democrats are much more extreme than they really are. 



the-pi-guy said:
Chrkeller said:

I think the real problem is a loud minority claim the US wants all these drastic changes to our ways of working. When the reality is the majority actually don't want change. This isn't being cascaded properly by the media, thus people think the US is a bigger mess than it actually is. As example, most people do not want universal healthcare. Most people do not want gun restrictions. Most people do not free college. And people aren't as pro choice as one might think.

Most people do want these things depending on how they're asked

What the exact question that gets asked is important. If you ask if Americans want more gun restrictions for mentally ill people, the vast majority of Americans support that restriction. If you ask for universal background checks, the vast majority of Americans (Republicans and Democrats, both above 70%) support that.

If you start asking about blanket gun bans, then you start getting a lot more pushback against that, especially amongst Republicans.

Gallup polling

Vox polling on Republicans and Democrats

It's a similar trend with healthcare. It depends on what question you actually ask. If you ask about a single payer system, there's a lot more pushback for that. If you ask if there should be a medicare/medicaid option available for everyone, there's substantially more support for that.

A bigger issue at hand is that when you bring up something like "gun restrictions", people tend to assume that means the absolute most disagreeable thing it could possibly mean.   

Chrkeller said:

Being born and raised here.  Knowing how my friends and family vote.  Oh and I am a registered democrat and vote as such.  I'm just telling the truth, which upsets people.  The core beliefs of the average american isn't what people think it is.  This is especially true in the mid-west and south.  

Personally I think Republicans pick up sets this November...  if the average american believed what people think they do....  republicans would get decimated at the polls...  fact is, Republicans are not and are doing quite well over the last decade.  

No one here is upset by the truth. But these things are more complicated than you're talking about. 

A major issue at hand here is that there is a big difference between what most Americans think Republicans and Democrats are, and what the reality actually is. 


Republican voters tend to be more moderate than Republican politicians.

Now, a new study finds that members of Congress also believe that they represent staunchly conservative electorates that do not actually exist.

If you actually ask people about their positions, a lot of times they have positions that are very in line with a typical Democratic politician, and yet they vote Republican. And then they start talking about Democrats, and they have very extreme views on where they think Democrats are.

There is a big perception difference between where the typical Democratic and Republican politician is, and where their voters think they are. Republicans think Republican politicians are less extreme than they really are, and they think Democrats are much more extreme than they really are. 

As somebody who does statistics for a living, polls are questionable.  Ask 11,000 people..  which people are being asked?  People in New York will have much different views than somebody in Alabama.  There are two ways of looking at it.  People don't know what they are voting for or people do know what they are voting for and the average person doesn't believe what we think they do.  I believe in the latter absolutely 100%.  But too each their own.  

Again, Hillary was suppose to decimate Trump...  how did that work out?  And I say this as somebody who never has nor never will vote Trump.  There is a massive disconnect between election results and what we think people want....  I'm not going to brush it off as "people are stupid and don't know what they are voting for."  I don't believe that is the case at all.  But again to each their own.



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED

Chrkeller said:

People don't know what they are voting for or people do know what they are voting for and the average person doesn't believe what we think they do.  I believe in the latter absolutely 100%.  But too each their own.  

I agree that polls can be questionable, because they're tricky to carry out. You have to ask a variety of people, and you have to ask the right question. Both things are important.

Personally I find most people don't understand what they're voting for.

Like "Defund the police". The vast majority of democrats did not want to eliminate police departments, most of them didn't even want to reduce funding. That did not stop many Republicans (voters and politicians alike) from believing they wanted to literally eliminate police departments.

There is absolutely a difference between reality and perception. That's the whole reason why propaganda, myths, marketing, conspiracy theories exist. 

People also vote for all kinds of different reasons.

Most of my in-laws vote based on exactly 1 policy. Doesn't matter if that politician wanted to gut healthcare, or wanted a single payer option, they vote based on that one policy.

Sometimes people vote based on the person.

A major problem with your hypothesis is that we barely ever vote for policies. We pretty much always vote for people, based on what they promise to do, and then we complain about it when don't. The fact that policies weren't implemented doesn't mean that people don't support those policies.