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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

It's completely stupid but the Kerch bridge is probably the main reason why they don't give Taurus to Ukraine. Scholz (maybe also Pistorius) is against the destruction of the Kerch bridge because Russia could take that as Germany's involvement in the war and German soldiers would have to use topographic data to program Taurus for Ukraine (for any target) which would be the second reason as involvement of German soldiers in the war. Sounds stupid but that's what Scholz thinks...

It's said that he told some behind closed doors that Germany simply can't do some stuff which countries like UK or France can. I guess he still has too much WW2 in his head and is scared that Germany could be too involved in a war. 

Last edited by crissindahouse - on 06 November 2023

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crissindahouse said:

It's completely stupid but the Kerch bridge is probably the main reason why they don't give Taurus to Ukraine. Scholz (maybe also Pistorius) is against the destruction of the Kerch bridge because Russia could take that as Germany's involvement in the war and German soldiers would have to use topographic data to program Taurus for Ukraine (for any target) which would be the second reason as involvement of German soldiers in the war. Sounds stupid but that's what Scholz thinks...

Pretty sure Storm Shadow and SCALP both use data like that as well to guide the missiles, maybe not as sophisticated as Taurus but still the same idea. Does make me wonder if Storm Shadow has been blocked on being used on Kerch Bridge as well. I wouldn't be surprised if West has an attitude of "Kerch Bridge was built by Russians so it counts as Russian territory so nothing we send is allowed to be used on it" and if that were to be the case then the Kerch Bridge is never going down.



Ryuu96 said:
crissindahouse said:

It's completely stupid but the Kerch bridge is probably the main reason why they don't give Taurus to Ukraine. Scholz (maybe also Pistorius) is against the destruction of the Kerch bridge because Russia could take that as Germany's involvement in the war and German soldiers would have to use topographic data to program Taurus for Ukraine (for any target) which would be the second reason as involvement of German soldiers in the war. Sounds stupid but that's what Scholz thinks...

Pretty sure Storm Shadow and SCALP both use data like that as well to guide the missiles, maybe not as sophisticated as Taurus but still the same idea. Does make me wonder if Storm Shadow has been blocked on being used on Kerch Bridge as well. I wouldn't be surprised if West has an attitude of "Kerch Bridge was built by Russians so it counts as Russian territory so nothing we send is allowed to be used on it" and if that were to be the case then the Kerch Bridge is never going down.

I've edited my post already. Scholz believes (if that info is correct) that France and UK are "allowed" to be more involved as Germany so that German soldiers aren't allowed to program Taurus with topographic data while those from UK and France are allowed to use them for their cruise missiles. 

Not sure if he believes that because of WW2 but wouldn't be surprised if that's the reason even if that has nothing to do with this war in 2023.



crissindahouse said:
Ryuu96 said:

Pretty sure Storm Shadow and SCALP both use data like that as well to guide the missiles, maybe not as sophisticated as Taurus but still the same idea. Does make me wonder if Storm Shadow has been blocked on being used on Kerch Bridge as well. I wouldn't be surprised if West has an attitude of "Kerch Bridge was built by Russians so it counts as Russian territory so nothing we send is allowed to be used on it" and if that were to be the case then the Kerch Bridge is never going down.

I've edited my post already. Scholz believes (if that info is correct) that France and UK are "allowed" to be more involved as Germany so that German soldiers aren't allowed to program Taurus with topographic data while those from UK and France are allowed to use them for their cruise missiles. 

Not sure if he believes that because of WW2 but wouldn't be surprised if that's the reason even if that has nothing to do with this war in 2023.

Makes no sense to me, Lol.

But yeah, it's probably holdover fear from WW2...Germany needs to move past that or they will always be exactly where Russia wants them, too afraid to do the right thing...Is this a big thing in Germany cause I've sort of heard similar sentiment from other Germans, almost like a fear of your own military power...



Ryuu96 said:
crissindahouse said:

I've edited my post already. Scholz believes (if that info is correct) that France and UK are "allowed" to be more involved as Germany so that German soldiers aren't allowed to program Taurus with topographic data while those from UK and France are allowed to use them for their cruise missiles. 

Not sure if he believes that because of WW2 but wouldn't be surprised if that's the reason even if that has nothing to do with this war in 2023.

Makes no sense to me, Lol.

But yeah, it's probably holdover fear from WW2...Germany needs to move past that or they will always be exactly where Russia wants them, too afraid to do the right thing...Is this a big thing in Germany cause I've sort of heard similar sentiment from other Germans, almost like a fear of your own military power...

Wouldn't call if fear of military power but our military definitely isn't as beloved as that in USA or other countries probably also because of how we talk about our history starting very early in school which is very different to pretty much all other countries I know about. Most people in countries like USA are proud of their military and soldiers and respect them even though they also did a lot of bad stuff in the past. It's hard to build a society respecting our soldiers when all you hear is how German soldiers were always the bad guys lol. 

It's important that we get reminded about our past so that this shit won't happen again but we should at least try to start respecting those who would give their life to protect us. But instead of that many look down on them as if they are the bad guys and guys like Scholz fear a lot to do even a tiny military misstep because that would be welcome to many just to say "we said so". Also doesn't help that we have some political parties and important politicians here who lean more to Russia as to USA and right now our political landscape is crazy. It's like any party can lose or win 10-20% right now lol. 

Last edited by crissindahouse - on 06 November 2023

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Ben Hodges Retired United States Commanding General, United States Army Europe.

Douglas Lute, Retired United States General.

What I worry about,” Douglas Lute, a retired general who was central to putting together the Afghanistan strategy in the Bush and Obama administrations, said at an event at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point last week, “is that we are giving them enough to stay in the fight, but not enough to win.”

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 08 November 2023

Mr. Biden's aides say they have now given Mr. Zelensky every weapons system he has requested, most recently ATACMS, the long-range missile systems Mr. Biden had long resisted providing because he feared they might cross a "red line" that could lead Mr. Putin to reach for nuclear weapons. Now the fear about the ATACMS is that they will not make that big a difference because the Russians are learning how to park their aircraft beyond the weapons' reach.

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Lol. NY Times just uses any "source" now huh? I seriously question the agenda of some of these journalists and some of the "sources" they use, was this aide Biden's dog? What is this trash? First of all, I seriously doubt Ukraine has "every weapon system it has requested" in fact I can name two right now which they still don't have, GLSDB and F-16s and those are just the public ones.

Secondly, there is a massive difference between the ATACMS missiles which Ukraine has and the one it has been requesting, the one it has is a cluster munition version with a maximum range of 165km, the one it has long asked for is a warhead version with a maximum range of 300km. So no, Ukraine doesn't have the exact ATACMS they were asking for (still a good one though).

Thirdly, am I being concern trolled right now with that nonsense about "they are learning to park their aircraft out of range! It's useless!" That's not a negative you bozo. Aviation being pushed further back from the frontline is a good thing because it makes them less effective in protecting assaulting units, it increases distances required to back up units, it increases fuel usage, it strains logistical lines, it decreases the time needed between maintenance as more usage further strains the aircraft, it increases the time Ukraine can get notice aircraft preparing to lob missiles at it.

And there are plenty of other important targets to strike when the aircraft is pulled back.

NYT is reaching to complain, the weapons delivered to Ukraine have been used effectively and cause Russians to adjust tactics, such as Storm Shadow bombing the Kerch drydock causing Russia to pull their ships even further back, then it hitting another ship docked in Crimea, Lol. The more that happens, the less pressure on Ukraine along the frontlines.

Also, it's one thing to deliver weapons, another thing is timing, ATACMS was too little, too late, it delivered an awesome blow on Russia's aircraft but it's not much help to a counteroffensive months after it had begun, things may have been different if they were delivered before the counteroffensive started because Russian helicopters helped in slowing it down.



I hope all of Biden's aides aren't this stupid.



Not sure what Russia is doing here, 400k soldiers should be able to stop this fairly easily and yet it grows.

Still, no excitement until Ukraine establishes a permanent bridgehead, until then this won't amount to much at all.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 08 November 2023