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Forums - Politics - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

The bottom line is that the F-16 is a combat proven airplane and the Gripen is not.

Since Ukraine will be flying both planes soon enough, let the pilots tell us which plane they prefer.

I look forward to their opinion on this matter.



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BFR said:
Qwark said:

The Gripen can land and fly from improvised runways, has better sensors, electronic warfare and sensors. It's also able to shoot a lot of missiles (Taurus/Meteor), not only American ones, which Trump may not want to sell.

For Ukraine the Gripen E is a solid option. It doesn't have to compete with the F22 or F35. Also it being cheaper to fly is nice. Also can the F16 outmanoeuvre the Meteor, which is fired beyond visual range.

None of that means Jack squat.

It's not about which plane is newer or has better sensors.

It's about which plane has a better COMBAT history.

If I was a military pilot, I would take the Fighting Falcon over the Gripen, in a heartbeat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen#Operational_history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operational_history

The F-16 can be very problematic because any gravel can destroy that multi million dollar jet engine of the F-16.  Maintenance is also very difficult for the F-16 and it is known to be a diva.  Training new pilots on the F-16 is also much harder, because the Gripen is light like a bird compared to the larger F-16, and also simpler maneuvering.  So the skill bar is lower for both pilots and maintence of the Gripen.  Now, Qwark mentioned some other advantages of the Gripen but I am looking at it from the mechanical perspective as well and that stuff matters too because you don't want some lugnut no-nothing mechanic trying to fix a plane and have it not done correctly.  He'll have a much easier time with the Gripen because it's a simpler system.  It is so light that it doesn't need all of the engineering bells and whistles that the F-16 has.  And, that's why its cheaper.  They can spend their $$$$$ on something else.  So they will be getting a lot of literal and figurative bang for their buck if they go with the Gripen.  

What if the Russians send drones out to put holes in the runways?  Even if they are drunk half the time, the other half they'll do alright.  The F-16 sits a lot lower than the Gripen and sucks up a lot more air and potentially thinks like rocks or gravel.  So you need a much higher quality runway for the F-16 than with the Gripen.   

So there's a lot more to it than just the araments and such.  Lots beneath the surface of this.  

Last edited by shavenferret - on 23 October 2025

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BFR said:
Qwark said:

The Gripen can land and fly from improvised runways, has better sensors, electronic warfare and sensors. It's also able to shoot a lot of missiles (Taurus/Meteor), not only American ones, which Trump may not want to sell.

For Ukraine the Gripen E is a solid option. It doesn't have to compete with the F22 or F35. Also it being cheaper to fly is nice. Also can the F16 outmanoeuvre the Meteor, which is fired beyond visual range.

None of that means Jack squat.

It's not about which plane is newer or has better sensors.

It's about which plane has a better COMBAT history.

If I was a military pilot, I would take the Fighting Falcon over the Gripen, in a heartbeat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen#Operational_history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operational_history

I guess we need to equip our armies with German Tiger I tanks, as they have been used extensively and the best kill ratio of any tanks who were used extensively.

Seriously, the Combat history would mean anything if they were fighting against foes with similar weaponry - but in most of their operational cases, the opponents didn't have ANY AA capabilities. It's actually more of an disgrace that 3 got downed in Irak from early 1960's soviet SAMs over Irak, which were built for defense against slower, less agile planes, and the main reason that Ukraine doesn't use them all that much is that against Russian planes, which are much more modern and numerous than what F-16s have encountered in all their lifetime before, effectively are much more powerful.



BFR said:

I'm glad that Trump is finally doing something.  Very thankful.  



BFR said:

1. It's only the two state run Chinese oil companies. There are a lot of "private" Chinese oil companies that continue buying oil from Russia.

2. Somebody should tell the Indian government they have stopped buying Russian oil.

Officially, the Indian government has no intention to stop buying oil from Russia (and that is what they continue doing currently).



Ok, let's open up the debate since you know where I stand on the F-16 vs. Gripen debate.

I believe the Leopard 2 and Challenger 2 tanks have performed the best in Ukraine.

The Abrams tank weighs a monstrous 60 tons and runs on jet fuel, which isn't lying around much of Ukraine these days.

I believe the M2 Bradley fighting vehicles have performed very well in this war.

Conclusion, give Ukraine more Leopards, Challengers, and Bradleys.

I would like to see my country sell 500 Bradleys to NATO countries for delivery to Ukraine.

This war would end when Russia sees it losing some of the 18% of Ukraine it currently controls.



BFR said:

Conclusion, give Ukraine more Leopards, Challengers, and Bradleys.

And more MIG fighter jets. Contrary to what people think, flying modern fighter jets is not easy to handle for Ukranians, be it maintenance or pilots or whatever. The "cool stuff" happens with MIG planes Ukrania still has and can scrap together, because these MIGs are what they know inside and out.

The problem is manpower of which Ukrania is running out much, much faster than the Russians. The only reason Ukrania is still on the map is the huge investment of drone manufacturing by them. As all military hotshots have realised by now, drone technology has been proven to be the future key technology and is improving rapidly. That is why Russia has increased its drone manufacturing to massive levels and can fly hundreds of drones a day by now.

People (and in particular politicians that like the cameras and microphones) are still on the "Send them our best tanks/fighter jets/rockets - but you go first" speech trips. That is not what is needed. Make joint agreements for massive increase in Ukranian drone manufacturing and actually do it asap instead of just grandstanding babbling about "sanctions" .