Phaeton said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:
A freeze in the conflict would also mean a freeze in western deliveries of military hardware. And since Russia can easily outproduce Ukraine, it would help Russia much more as after the freeze they would have the upper hand again in terms of equipment.
bolded: Russia does the same with the 4 regions they are "occupying". Neither do they occupy entirely or even any of their regional capitals, But Russia treats them as Russian territory. And not just the part they occupy, but the entire regions. So if all things are equal, If Russia can consider the entire region their own despite only occupying a part of them, then the same would apply for Ukraine, too.
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Again,fundamental misunderstandings here.First of all,freeze in the conflict would NOT mean a freeze in western deliveries of military hardware.
More importantly,Kiev regime's primary supplier isn't the West.It's Soviet Union,and supplies from it are one-time.And already happened.
Finally,"upper hand AGAIN"?What?Russia held the upper hand through the entire conflict,Kiev regime just had numerical superiority while Soviet supplies lasted.
SOVIET.Not Western.Nobody cares about thirty Leopards when you need thirty of them PER BRIGADE.Which is more than production run.
Russia doesn't"treat"new regions as Russian territory,they are Russian territory by Russian constitution,which happened as a result of local plebiscites.That NOW Russia doesn't hold provincial capitols is irrelevant-it held enough territory for a plebiscite-Kiev regime never even attempted one.
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1. The incentive to support Ukraine falls apart in most countries if the conflict freezes, so yes, deliveries would take a stepp hit.
2. Soviet equipment came mostly in 2022, since then, the Ukraine military is steadily transforming into a NATO-standard army, with most of their current equipment being on NATO calibers instead of WP calibers now.
Also, you're contradicting yourself here, saying that it wouldn't mean western deliveries would go down but at the same time you're saying they are insignificant compared to Soviet supplies. Again, this may have been true in 2022 when Ukraine captures scores of Russian equipment plus western surplus soviet equipment deliveries, but since then that ain't true anymore.
3. About that 30 Leopards, let's see how many western armored vehicles have been delivered to Ukraine to date, shall we?
Tanks:
- Leopard 1 : 195
- Leopard 2 : 110
- M1 Abrams : 80
- Challenger 2 : 14
AFVs:
- 68 BVS-10
- 23 FV107 Scimitar
- 9+ Fennek
- 40+ AMX 10 RC
IFVs:
- 160 Marder
- 300+ M2 Bradley
- 125+ CV 90
- 200+ KTO Rosomaks
APCs:
- 353 YPR-765
- 35 FV103 Spartan
- 40 FV104 Samaritan
- Over 1500 M113 (couldn't be bothered to count the exact amount)
- 284+ VAB
- 20 Sisu XA-185
- 108+ Bandvagn
- 400 Stryker
- 400 M1117
- 424 FV100/FV430 (exact number of each type not announced)
- 250+ Pbv-302
- 89 LAV 6
- GTK Boxer, Patria AMV and Puma 6x6 (no numbers announced)
Those with a + behind the number are still getting more delivered or where not the exact number has been announced, just "over x amount".
Add to this 1500+ MRAPs, 6000+ Armored Mobility vehicles (most of them Humvees), 350+ self-propelled artillery (most being French CAESAR and US M109), and yo get enough equipment for several corps, not just brigades, worth of western equipment. The Soviet equipment like T-72 are increasingly on the way out as Ukraine has less and less of them, with the exception of the T-64 because it's a domestic design, and maybe the BTR-4, but that Ukrainian design is already a hybrid of Soviet and Western design philosophies.
Also, keep in mind that many western vehicles have the same calibers, so mixing Leopard 2 and Abrams in a brigade is less of an issue than Russians using T-62 and T-72 in the same brigade since the T-62 and T-72 don't use the same ammunition for their main guns.
bolded: Voted at gunpoint to get that result, yay. That way you can get whatever result you want. If somebody held Putin at gunpoint for instance, and order him to break up Russia and blame regional independence movements for it, he'll do just to save his skin it and say it's the will of the people even if it isn't true. Well, same shit happened to the inhabitants in the occupied Ukrainian regions, they weren't exactly free to choose their answer...
Edit: All that research and he'll never read it because he got banned in the meanwhile, yay...
Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 07 February 2025