SvennoJ said:
ZyroXZ2 said:
Whooooaaa there, I'm addressing Souls in particular and how previous posts are mentioning the complexity and cost, or in particular, the poster that's mentioning how it can be done without using AI learning. I, myself in the video, am clearly talking about AI adaptability in which it DOES have to learn to some extent, but here on the forum I'm also addressing the current state of games like Souls and Monster Hunter and how simple changes can be highly effective since both rely heavily on cycles (read: grinding). Once again, not looking for "human" AI, but am also discussing how simply tiered skill difficulty AI routines can be applied to currently considering "difficult" games, ergo Souls. Once again, amiibo CPU fighters are a surprisingly good example of how it can be applied without AI machine learning until said AI machine learning becomes more accessible/widespread/widely adopted. You are right that "game guides" on how to beat bosses would become meaningless, but that's a GOOD thing. Granted, on easier modes, the vast majority of players don't need guides. For people looking for a challenge, the idea that they would then also look up how to beat the boss seems counterintuitive: the skilled players are NOT looking at game guides for how to beat bosses lol... I think they would welcome the change-up! Rubberbanding, however, is not adaptability. That is, in and of itself, simply metadata adjustments (seriously, making a car go faster, or slower, or selecting its place in the pack, that's all just conditional changes similar to the previous poster mentioning ammo/resource adjustments based on player performance). This is why I kind of chuckle at Xbox still being the overall most hated of the three as they have done backend things that most "gamers" would completely fail to appreciate, and one of those is Drivatars. Sure, there are still programmed confines to Drivatars, but I can tell you that it's implemented better than people imagine it is, and it uses simple AI learning processes where a human player is present to learn data from and apply to their digital offline AI racer. Otherwise, they kind of randomize the behaviors where no data is present. Is there still a target difficulty that the AI drivers try to achieve based on the selected difficulty by the player like what you described? Yes, I've tested it. But it's still a step forward in the right direction when cars will brake early or brake check me, or side swipe me or pit me at all what is seemingly completely random and is what keeps even a simple offline race potentially "dynamically difficult". When the AI behaves out of expectation, it's what challenges the human lmfao  |
Doesn't FH4 use Drivatars, cause the 'AI' in that was horrible. So bad I set it to the easiest difficulty so I could just do time attacks. The 'AI' was ruining the game for me. That's a fundamental problem with racing games trying to simulate human behavior. The average player can't race for shit. Sure, they can use their car as a weapon and knock you off the road, but if you want a tactical close race, you need to get in the top tiers in GT Sport or iRacing. I honestly prefer DriveClub's sometimes murderous AI over FH4.
The funny thing about AI is, once you have it, it's not really AI anymore. Just another set of routines. I studied AI in university and all the stuff we learned there is now common stuff, simple routines, from language parsing (Is Alexa AI?) to route planning or path finding in games.
Anyway my point was that adaptive gameplay would undermine the Souls 'ego' boost. The whole point of those games is one fixed difficulty to master. But maybe there is another niche that would enjoy enemies becoming smarter and mixing things up to counter your play style. As it is now, Souls games are like a dance routine. You die, start back at the bonfire and it's basically a rhythm game to get back where you were to learn the next sequence. Now if the enemies get smarter and suddenly feign one attack to do another to catch you off guard (like skilled human players in racing games), dying becomes 10x more tedious! |
The Horizon games use Drivatars as well, but to far less effect, and to virtually no effect in the open world (for obvious reasons). Though, I have mine set to highly skilled for that sweet +40% monies, and yet I always manage first place anyway. Highly skilled seems to be the sweet spot because as I go higher, I notice simple changes in the metadata where cars are simply faster and taking corners faster than I can through numbers and not legitimate driving. Having said that, though, UGH Driveclub... They were trying to enforce things correctly in principal: minimal car contact, proper overtaking and passing. Instead, though, the AI turned into proverbial "immovable tanks driven by soldiers" and that really took the immersion out for me lol
And yes, currently the vast majority of "artificial intelligence" is barely considered intelligence at all: it's all pre-programmed routines following conditions (if-then stuff). BUT, AI is also largely accepted as including said if-then as a decision-making process. Ergo, we largely define AI as being able to make its own decisions based on its algorithms, and thus Alexa CAN be considered AI when Alexa can misinterpret words or make wrong decisions from poor interpretation of the spoken language. Ergo, the reason we focus on when these systems making mistakes is because of what I said above: when the AI behaves out of expectation, the human is challenged lol
About Souls, yes the "difficulty" is fixed because subsequent cycles are just metadata tweaks. But per a previous comment, I actually think skilled Souls players would appreciate that playthrough 2+ has a learning curve (at least in terms of bosses or something), and that's how I think we can apply AI adaptability to Souls without using machine learning. This is, as also previously mentioned, how amiibo CPU fighters work. Sure, it's not what I'm talking about specifically, but it's a step forward the same way Drivatars are for racing games. I think the ego boost you mention will actually be BIGGER because, "bruh, you can't even beat playthrough 1, and I'm on my FIFTH playthrough, bruh GIT GUD" and that means he's cleared even more difficult "versions" of the bosses as opposed to them simply having more health and hitting harder. He would genuinely have developed more skill because he's beaten the "level 10 amiibo CPU version" while the other player is struggling with "level 1 amiibo CPU version".
curl-6 said:
Nautilus said:
Honestly, Game difficulties shouldn't exist to begin with, for some of the reason you said.
Most games just deal with different difficulties as if its a slider that turn up or down and adjust enemy health/damage/defense, which in turn utterly unbalances most games, making them stupid easy(you can withstand most damage and not worry about dying) or unfairly hard( you die super fast, and enemies become hp sponges because the game needed them to ebcome harder without actually working on their moves, behavior, etc)
In order for games to actually have difficulties that actually represent their difficulty without making them cheap think Halo hardest difficulties in whic most enemies 1 hit kill you or cl;ose to it), you would have to rework so much of the game, like its level design, enemy behavior, attack patters, etc. that you would be basically putting in the same ammount of work and time as if you were doing a new game.
Maybe AI will be good enough in the future that this will not be a problem, but for now AI cant do all these stuff I just said. Even if they were to only handle enemy attack patterns to change betwenn difficulties, I would imagine that it would be alot of work(And I do mean alot) for something that, at the end of the day, its meaningless.
Carefully ahndcrafted experiences that doesn't compromise the vision is one of the reason that games like Dark Sould ands Cuphead became as famous as they did. I talk more about this topic in this thread: https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1 |
The problem with game difficulties not existing is it excludes millions of people with disabilities or who just aren't blessed with the best reflexes or fine motor control skills. The only reason I can enjoy most of the games that I do is because they have an easy mode that allows me to relax and enjoy them without becoming stressed and unhappy because my impaired motor skills keep getting me killed, or just plain being locked out the whole experience because I'd come up against a section that was impossible for me to beat. Never once in all my time as a gamer have I experienced a game's design feeling compromised by it offering multiple difficulty options. |
I know your reply wasn't directed at me, but I do think for the record that through AI adaptability, easier difficulties on harder games COULD also become more accessible. Sometimes, simply decreasing enemy health and damage really isn't enough, especially for disabled people as you mention, so AI adaptability that reads the player and bases its moveset on the difficulty level could also provide better access. Just food for thought as I may be focused on greater difficulties, but also understand not everyone wants that.