the-pi-guy said:
| o_O.Q said:
"Gender isn't derived from clothing"
ok what is gender derived from?
here you appear to conclude that its what a person chooses to identify as
"How do I differentiate between the two? By appearance, unless the person says otherwise. "
you are saying here that your ultimate decision is based on what the person claims to identify as
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>ok what is gender derived from?
My confusion here was whether you were talking scientifically or how I, an individual, would derive what gender someone else was.
>you are saying here that your ultimate decision is based on what the person claims to identify as
If a person wants to identify differently, they're almost certainly going to change their appearance.
o_O.Q said:
" It's about understanding there are exceptions, and trying to make laws that harm people who are exceptions is wrong."
aren't you arguing that the classic understanding of what a man is and what a woman is need to be expanded to include those who identify as such?
you aren't treating them as if they are exceptions but instead rendering the classification meaningless to ensure there are no exceptions
which laws are you referring to? you mean stopping male assigned at birth people from accessing women's washrooms? to me that's for women to decide, if they are ok with it then let it happen, even put in urinals if it comes to that
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>you aren't treating them as if they are exceptions but instead rendering the classification meaningless to ensure there are no exceptions
That's not what that does.
If there were two teams, you are basically arguing that teams are meaningless if people get to choose which team they are on.
>which laws are you referring to? you mean stopping male assigned at birth people from accessing women's washrooms? to me that's for women to decide, if they are ok with it then let it happen, even put in urinals if it comes to that
Then there's no confusion there.
o_O.Q said:
"when if you actually read anything I've said, you'd understand that I admit that such a thing could happen."
you instead of dealing with what i was saying tried to twist it to make it seem like i was talking about different species when i was clearly talking about identity
its ironic though that you and the others pushing this idea tried to fall back onto biology to try to invalidate my argument, to me it indicates that on some level you don't really have conviction in this idea but that's my opinion
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>you instead of dealing with what i was saying tried to twist it to make it seem like i was talking about different species when i was clearly talking about identity
You were still comparing gender identity to species identity.
And again I clearly said that I'm sure it could happen somewhere.
>its ironic though that you and the others pushing this idea tried to fall back onto biology to try to invalidate my argument, to me it indicates that on some level you don't really have conviction in this idea but that's my opinion
I have no idea what you mean by that. Conviction in what idea?
| o_O.Q said:
"There are plenty of pronouns that don't differentiate between men and women."
in the context we are speaking in we are referring to people transitioning between man and woman, obviously meaning that the relevant pronouns in this discussion are he and she which are used to differentiate between the two
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I'm just pointing out that the difference between a pronoun and a noun isn't what you've described. The point that I was making is that most of the time, people have a preference about what they'd like to be called. Whether the word for calling is a pronoun, or some variation of their name, or even some other name, doesn't make any major difference.
o_O.Q said:
"That doesn't mean it's subconscious."
its subconscious and embedded from around the age of 2 or so from childhood and i'm unsure but i'd expect there may even be biological instincts from birth that facilitate the differentiation
a young kid knows to suck on its mother's breasts for sustenance for example
"Even then you still have to make conscious decisions about what things are. "
when you recoil after touching a hot pan do you have to think about whether it was hot or not or do you just recoil instinctively?
what about if someone throws something at you?
what about when a dog barks?
i find it hard to believe that you are trying to get me to believe that you have to stop and think in order to recognise people you know or whether someone is a woman or a man
"Just because something has a subconscious element doesn't mean it's beyond your control. "
in this case it clearly is, i want you to go outside, go to the nearest town and walk around and every time you see someone that is clearly a woman try to convince yourself that its really barack obama
try doing that for a month or so then send me your results
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>its subconscious and embedded from around the age of 2 or so from childhood and i'm unsure but i'd expect there may even be biological instincts from birth that facilitate the differentiation
Giving a random example of something that might be subconscious doesn't have anything to do with anything in this conversation.
>when you recoil after touching a hot pan do you have to think about whether it was hot or not or do you just recoil instinctively?
>what about if someone throws something at you?
Again random examples don't have anything to do with anything.
>i find it hard to believe that you are trying to get me to believe that you have to stop and think in order to recognise people you know or whether someone is a woman or a man
I don't have to stop and think. Just because something happens quickly doesn't mean it's subconscious.
>in this case it clearly is, i want you to go outside, go to the nearest town and walk around and every time you see someone that is clearly a woman try to convince yourself that its really barack obama
Easier yet. Every time I see a woman, I call them barack obama. Easy.
Or make an instant conscious decision that they are Barack Obama. Easy.
What does your subconscious tell you this is? Old woman or young woman?
My conscious can choose to see either one.
o_O.Q said:
"Can you not see that there are biological complexities that make gender disphoria a possible thing?"
never denied that it was a thing and that sucks for those people, but that doesn't mean that we should completely upend how society works
blind people are inconvenienced by how towns are organised, do we restructure towns entirely to make things perfect for them or do they have to accept to some degree that things will be a little harder for them?
well in reality we've settled on the latter
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>but that doesn't mean that we should completely upend how society works
What are you talking about? What "upending of society" is being proposed?
It seems like you think there's this law going to be put into place that requires you tomagically know what gender every individual is.
No one is expecting you to magically know what gender every individual is.
| o_O.Q said:
"That doesn't mean they are lying to themselves."
but come on, in some cases its clearly delusion or a phase and that's why they detransition
"I never said brain structure is binary. There are differences in brain structures, and there are variations between those brain structures. Clearly non-binary."
fair enough, ok so brains exist on a spectrum is that it? and each type should have a gender? this is a question i'm not saying this is your claim, i'm asking because it seems like that's where this is heading
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>but come on, in some cases its clearly delusion or a phase and that's why they detransition
That's hardly the conclusion to make.
>each type should have a gender?
I'm not trying to assign genders.
| o_O.Q said:
"How do I differentiate between the two? By appearance, unless the person says otherwise. "
you are saying here that your ultimate decision is based on what the person claims to identify as
that is my problem
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Do you think a cisgender male would pretend to be transgender? With the potential for harrassment, what part of it do you think would make it worth pretending?
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"My confusion here was whether you were talking scientifically or how I, an individual, would derive what gender someone else was. "
even though i asked you directly how you would do so?
"If a person wants to identify differently, they're almost certainly going to change their appearance. "
you mean with regards to clothing?
fair enough, so if this person claims to be a woman, then according to your standards they are a woman since they are wearing women's clothing and claim to be a woman?
"If there were two teams, you are basically arguing that teams are meaningless if people get to choose which team they are on. "
it is if you throw away the only methods of differentiation obviously
if i have one team wear red and the other team wear blue
but if the players just decide arbitrarily to switch colors around even though they claim to still be on one team and not other well obviously identification becomes a problem and this isn't even comparable since anyone with two eyes can see who is a man and who is a woman 99.9999999% of the time in an instant
"You were still comparing gender identity to species identity. "
can you explain to me logically what the difference between the two are without appealing to biology?
you've said that you don't believe there are only 2 genders but at least 3
your recent comment here implies that you think its bound somehow, can you explain what you think gender is bound by? well if its just a social construct the limits should simply be the limits of the imagination right?
"I have no idea what you mean by that. Conviction in what idea? "
your constant appeals back to biology are indicating to me that you don't really believe in this silly idea that gender is just a social construct/identity yourself
"The point that I was making is that most of the time, people have a preference about what they'd like to be called. Whether the word for calling is a pronoun, or some variation of their name, or even some other name, doesn't make any major difference. "
it makes a massive difference with regards to whether someone gives me their name as josh compared to a flipping man telling me i must refer to him as woman
it renders the meaning of he and she completely arbitrary and i don't see how you could argue that's not the case
"Giving a random example of something that might be subconscious doesn't have anything to do with anything in this conversation."
the point is that a similar perceptual mechanism is at play when we see people, this is well understood
"Just because something happens quickly doesn't mean it's subconscious. "
true, but it is subconscious and i'm literally in disbelief that you appear to be trying to argue against that fact
"Easier yet. Every time I see a woman, I call them barack obama. Easy.
Or make an instant conscious decision that they are Barack Obama. Easy."
if you want to throw away logic and reason to submit to this ideology that's your decision, i'm just pointing out why its not rationally justified and therefore i see no reason for me personally to entertain it, but i was participating here with the hope that i would be proven wrong and actually see if someone could put together a coherent explanation for why it makes sense
"What does your subconscious tell you this is? Old woman or young woman? "
why are you asking me about how my perception of gender works by using a sketch that looks like it was made by rubbing charcoal on paper?
why couldn't you just use an actual picture of a woman?
"What "upending of society" is being proposed?"
much of the structure of our society is constructed on the differentiation of men and woman are you in denial of this?
its why we didn't let men into boxing rings to beat up women until a few years back, for example, its why affirmative action exists, why women's advocacy groups are a thing etc etc etc
"Do you think a cisgender male would pretend to be transgender? With the potential for harrassment, what part of it do you think would make it worth pretending?"
i didn't say that i said that my problem is with the idea that identity determines gender because its clearly as you and others here have demonstrated an illogical idea that is contradicted within the very same ideology
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