By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Hypocrisy on Abortion?

 

Democratic Support of UBI and Abortion at the same time is Hypocrisy

Yes 8 26.67%
 
No 22 73.33%
 
Total:30
morenoingrato said:
o_O.Q said:

"I don't particularly see many people who are pro-choice, using the argument that "fetuses are parasites, and women should be able to remove parasites from them.""

abortion fundamentally is a process that treats unborn babies as if they are parasites that must be eradicated when the mothers call for it... do you agree?

For many people that have to or choose to undergo abortions, it is a horrific, traumatic experience. The fact you trivialize that feeling to paint pro-choice people as cold and heartless really shows your hypocrisy and lack of empathy.

ok if abortion does not treat unborn babies as if they are parasites, what would be a more apt comparison?

Last edited by o_O.Q - on 18 May 2019

Around the Network
morenoingrato said:
o_O.Q said:

"I don't particularly see many people who are pro-choice, using the argument that "fetuses are parasites, and women should be able to remove parasites from them.""

abortion fundamentally is a process that treats unborn babies as if they are parasites that must be eradicated when the mothers call for it... do you agree?

For many people that have to or choose to undergo abortions, it is a horrific, traumatic experience. The fact you trivialize that feeling to paint pro-choice people as cold and heartless really shows your hypocrisy and lack of empathy.

"your hypocrisy and lack of empathy."

lay out for me also how i have been hypocritical and i suppose my lack of empathy just boils down to me disagreeing with you

i've long come to understand that generally the first people to jump to talking about empathy don't really understand what it means at all



the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

"I don't particularly see many people who are pro-choice, using the argument that "fetuses are parasites, and women should be able to remove parasites from them.""

abortion fundamentally is a process that treats unborn babies as if they are parasites that must be eradicated when the mothers call for it... do you agree?

I do not.  

Trivializing it that way, diminishes the hard ship that woman undergo when they make that decision.  Deciding to have an abortion is not an easy thing for the vast majority of women.  

o_O.Q said:

" for example: http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/fetus-focus-fallacy.shtml is trying to make is by saying that having a child brings an emotional and physical toll on the mother. "

you understand that physical and emotional toll are both connected to depletion of resources right?

if i spend all day swinging a sledge hammer breaking up rocks and i go home and say "man i'm tired as shit" you don't think that has anything to do with my muscles working and depleting the energy of my body resulting in both my body and mind becoming exhausted?

Sure.  When paying for my next TV, I will just give the cashier some food, because it's all just resources.  

Or maybe I should just smile, because depeleting the energy stores I have to give them a smile ought to be just as good as money.

Just because those things are "resources" doesn't mean they are viewed in the same way.  

Society makes distinctions with different types of resources, you should too.  

o_O.Q said:

"I'd rather pay taxes to go towards the less fortunate.  Even if only 1 out of a 100 genuinely needed it.  You can't be pro-life while looking the other way when people die of starvation."

i don't think any person can be considered less fortunate or vulnerable than an unborn baby

Sure. 

"Trivializing it that way, diminishes the hard ship that woman undergo when they make that decision. "

all women?

https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/9tskf0/is_this_a_common_childfree_thing/

"So, a thought just randomly came into my head, and I know it’s going to sound harsh to all the parent lurkers out there. Kind of want to see how many people agree with this.

I can’t deal with seeing pregnant women. I can’t stand the ‘baby bump’ - it actually makes me feel sick. I just keep thinking that it’s a parasite (I know, harsh) and how much it would be so gross if it was in me, like a massive tapeworm except it makes you bigger instead of smaller."

https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/8nj78m/abortion_confession_felt_joy_that_i_was_cured/

" I realized in the car on the way home that I had been 'cured' from the parasite that was inside me making me constantly pee and vomit. The profound feeling of joy that I felt from that realization really was what convinced me that I truly didn't want children. No guilt, no wondering if I did the right thing, no worrying about some non-existent 'potential life'. It would have been best to not have abortions, but in some ways I'm glad I did cuz that's what it took to teach me I really didn't want children. My my baby brain friends might tell me that my feelings would change once 'I felt that precious life kicking inside me'. Sorry, nope."

https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/4do2yx/my_mom_didnt_like_the_idea_of_parasites/

"Hi childfree, I've been commenting quite a bit but I never posted. Here's my little story.

During a talk with my mom (who accepts my childfree lifestyle), we went onto the subject of abortion (about news in the US in particular) and I made the mistake of calling a foetus a parasite."

https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/9pgx5q/parasite_be_gone/

"Heyo guys, throwaway because I'm not a fan of breeders and forced birthers flooding my inbox. Due to some stupidity on my part I had unprotected sex and surprise surprise a parasite took camp in my uterus."

"Just because those things are "resources" doesn't mean they are viewed in the same way.  

Society makes distinctions with different types of resources, you should too.  "

that's actually a fair argument i suppose how relevant my comparison is hinges on why democrats believe people should be obligated to give their resources up for programs like ubi

to me it looks like the reasoning can be applied to unborn children in the same way since it is argued that people who are less fortunate should be given the means to survive from those who are more fortunate

why do you think this excludes children?

"Sure. "

do you disagree that unborn babies are probably the least fortunate and most vulnerable group there is?



Bahahahha! r/childfree?
Is that your source?



morenoingrato said:
Bahahahha! r/childfree?
Is that your source?

yeah why aren't they relevant? they are a group of democratic women who hate children

or do democrats that you disagree with not matter?

its not as if i couldn't get other examples, regardless, they were just the easiest i could think of and i'm honestly not going to put in that much effort to validate an argument that any honest person knows is true



Around the Network
o_O.Q said:
morenoingrato said:
Bahahahha! r/childfree?
Is that your source?

yeah why aren't they relevant? they are a group of democratic women who hate children

or do democrats that you disagree with not matter?

its not as if i couldn't get other examples, regardless, they were just the easiest i could think of and i'm honestly not going to put in that much effort to validate an argument that any honest person knows is true

You chose a fringe, fringe, fringe group of anonymous people that go to an internet subforum to hate on people with kids. That does not validate your argument. Also, prove their party affiliation if you will.



RolStoppable said:
morenoingrato said:
Bahahahha! r/childfree?
Is that your source?

Are you a dishonest person?

No. What does that have to do with the ridiculous sources used to push his arguments?



the-pi-guy said:

o_O.Q said:

"Trivializing it that way, diminishes the hard ship that woman undergo when they make that decision. "

all women?

You literally removed the one sentence in my post that would have answered your question.  

"Deciding to have an abortion is not an easy thing for the vast majority of women."

Most questions starting with "all" are going to be false, because there are 7 billion people and all of them are different. 

o_O.Q said:

"Just because those things are "resources" doesn't mean they are viewed in the same way.  

Society makes distinctions with different types of resources, you should too.  "

that's actually a fair argument i suppose how relevant my comparison is hinges on why democrats believe people should be obligated to give their resources up for programs like ubi

to me it looks like the reasoning can be applied to unborn children in the same way since it is argued that people who are less fortunate should be given the means to survive from those who are more fortunate

why do you think this excludes children?

it doesn't exclude "children".  

The typical argument is that people should be able to have control over what is inside their bodies.    

o_O.Q said:

"Sure. "

do you disagree that unborn babies are probably the least fortunate and most vulnerable group there is?

I disagree with "least fortunate", I would agree with "most vulnerable".  

""Deciding to have an abortion is not an easy thing for the vast majority of women.""

is there any statistical data on this? 

"Most questions starting with "all" are going to be false, because there are 7 billion people and all of them are different. "

within the sentence i quoted you were generalising heavily and i thought that i should refute it because you weren't taking women with opposing views into account, and that's not fair to those women who you are not representing

"The typical argument is that people should be able to have control over what is inside their bodies."

yes i understand that, but what i'm saying is that there's no consistency here because the same people would argue that your body should be controlled for the good of society when some resources are taken from you for programs such as ubi

you obviously have to work harder to gather those additional resources so your bodily autonomy is reduced as a result

"I disagree with "least fortunate", I would agree with "most vulnerable".  "

why do you think they are less entitled to live than the poor?

i suppose you'd say that the poor under programs like ubi are not restricting the bodily autonomy of others like with pregnancy but that's not true since people have to work harder to support programs like ubi 



morenoingrato said:
o_O.Q said:

yeah why aren't they relevant? they are a group of democratic women who hate children

or do democrats that you disagree with not matter?

its not as if i couldn't get other examples, regardless, they were just the easiest i could think of and i'm honestly not going to put in that much effort to validate an argument that any honest person knows is true

You chose a fringe, fringe, fringe group of anonymous people that go to an internet subforum to hate on people with kids. That does not validate your argument. Also, prove their party affiliation if you will.

as i've said i could just as easily pull examples from more mainstream sources, but i'm not spending hours of my time pouring through articles to validate an argument that any sensible person would agree with

do i really have to prove that people who want to kill unborn children have little regard for unborn children?

but regardless i have to prove that pro abortion people are democrats? really?



o_O.Q said:
JWeinCom said:
First off, the people you're quoting on UBI are not the same people as you're quoting on calling fetuses parasites. If you find a sufficiently large group of people, you're going to find contradictory opinions among them. It would only become hypocrisy if it were the exact same people making the arguments, or supporting both policies. This is a basic part to whole fallacy.

Secondly, you're confusing metaphor and literal. The people are above are arguing that fetus are literal parasites (or pretty close at least). For argument's sake let's just agree that UBI reception equals metaphorical parasitism. That doesn't mean I have to have the same opinion on that as I do for literal parasitism.

For example, children can easily be thought of as metaphorical parasites (in most cases). Tapeworm are a literal parasite. I have a very different opinion on how each should be handled. Is this hypocrisy? I would think not.

This is an argument by analogy fallacy. Beyond the very abstract concept of one organism benefiting from another, these situations are so far removed from one another that it's ridiculous to suggest that an opinion on one should inform an opinion on the other.

"First off, the people you're quoting on UBI are not the same people as you're quoting on calling fetuses parasites."

well they have not explicitly said so but i'm pretty sure that the vast majority of democrats in support of ubi are also in support of abortion and abortion at its very core is a process which treats unborn babies as if they are unwanted parasites

do you deny that?

"This is a basic part to whole fallacy. "

no that's not really true and i've addressed why above

"Secondly, you're confusing metaphor and literal. The people are above are arguing that fetus are literal parasites (or pretty close at least). For argument's sake let's just agree that UBI reception equals metaphorical parasitism. That doesn't mean I have to have the same opinion on that as I do for literal parasitism."

this has nothing to do with confusing literal and metaphorical

the people i quoted are using unborn babies as metaphors for parasites because and this is the most relevant part they take resources from another entity and restrict the bodily autonomy of that entity

i'm saying that a parallel can be drawn between this and when the same people argue that we need to take more resources from certain people and give those resources to other people causing a restriction in bodily autonomy in the first group of people as a result

i don't see how you can try to deny the clear comparison being done here, i can of course understand the motivation but the outright denial? that's surprising to me

"For example, children can easily be thought of as metaphorical parasites (in most cases). Tapeworm are a literal parasite. I have a very different opinion on how each should be handled."

that's great, but that's not really relevant to the argument i made since here you are showing different methods of handling seemingly similar situations whereas in my case i showed how the methods used (siphoning resources from the haves to the have nots) are similar in handling the situations i brought up

you essentially built a strawman, torched it and said "AHA! got you!" 

"This is an argument by analogy fallacy."

it would be if you actually addressed what i posted instead of attacking a strawman

"Beyond the very abstract concept of one organism benefiting from another"

well that's your opinion, if you don't think the two can be compared well that's ok, we can agree to disagree

i personally think its pretty darn clear that there is an obvious correlation here

to reiterate, the baby needs resources from the mother to survive, however, this impacts negatively on the mother because she loses resources to the baby and her bodily autonomy is restricted

the poor according to democrats need resources from other people to survive, however, this impacts negatively on those people because they lose resources to the poor and their bodily autonomy is restricted(more work is required to gather resources for example)

you appear to be arguing that you can look at these two situations and not see the clear connection between them and that's ok

" these situations are so far removed from one another that it's ridiculous to suggest that an opinion on one should inform an opinion on the other."

well lets try to isolate the similarities between them for a minute ok?

1. Person cannot gather the resources needed to survive on their own

2. The person requires resources from another to survive

3. Resources are channeled from haves to have nots

4. Bodily autonomy is restricted in the haves as a result

differences

1. haves/have nots can be plural in one instance but are always singular in the other

2. ...

This style of posting makes it super hard to respond coherently...

1.  Yes, I deny that.  I don't believe that most democrats support UBI in the first place.  And it's very possible to support abortion without thinking of a fetus as a parasite. I believe you yourself said you believe a woman has a right to abortion, but don't think a fetus is a parasite. You're taking positions espoused by some democrats and applying them to all.  This is indeed a basic part to whole fallacy.  

2.  No, you're clearly confusing literal with metaphorical.  Which you made even more clear.  The people you quoted above (especially the first one) are not saying that fetuses are metaphorically parasites, they are saying that they are literally parasites.  I would quote them... but that seems redundant. 

3. I'm going to have to doubt how genuine you're being if you honestly can't think of any differences between the situations.

One involves fully formed human beings only, one involves partially formed human beings that often have neither the capacity to reason or feel.  One restricts bodily autonomy, one does not (redistributing my income does not limit what I can do with my body).  One involves something growing in someone's body, one does not.  One poses significant health risks, to one party and death to the other, one does not.  One involves a medical procedure one does not.  

I get the weak analogy that's being made, but aside from the basic concept of redistributing resources, the situations are not really the same.  And again, these arguments are not being put forth by the same people.  You're trying to manufacture hypocrisy.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 18 May 2019