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Alby_da_Wolf said:

 

 

A thing I don't understand is blaming just May for this mess. Couldn't the members of Parliament give May a list of points she should have asked for when dealing with the EU, and possibly a confidential minimum list to settle on if not all points were accepted by the counterpart, BEFORE she started discussing the deal? 

 

May hasn't got a clue because they were never expecting this outcome and they're were too scared to simply research the effects of a brexit first before returning to the people with the full facts of the situation, instead the clown who caused the whole situation fled to Spain leaving May in charge and she stupidly triggered article 51 with no plan that's why she's getting burned alive. The EU have simply done what they said they were going to do they have a list of their own they want adhered to for any deal only difference is they're not the ones facing immediate uncertainty ahead so they don't have to budge.



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Victorlink87 said:
JRPGfan said:

Trump isnt against unfair trade,.... he just wants all trade to be unfair towards the other parties.
Thats basially what "america first" means. He is unwilling to deal, without there being huge gains for the US.

Also yes, divide and conquer, is probably what he is thinking, and what the russians/chinese want too.
But why would the US want a weak ally they can take advantage of? instead of a strong partner?

Ever heard the expression "with friends like you, who needs enemies?"
Basically trump doesnt set out to make friends, in his world view, screwing everyone over, even friends for profits, is the way of things.

In this way, he differs quite alot compaired to most past US presidents.

I would have to disagree to an extent. The US has been absolutely taken advantage of in the area of trade for decades. Tariffs have been imposed upon the US, but the US imposes no or much smaller tariffs resulting in massive trade deficits, half a trillion to a trillion dollars. Trump has helped level that playing field quite a bit. The main culprits of the unfair and lopsided deals for the US were the EU and China.

 

In all honesty all leaders of countries should be trying to do what is best for their country. Including not rolling over to unfair/bad deals.

 

Interestingly enough both parties agreed that US was losing in trade deals before Trump. It wasnt until Trump that the divide happened. I understand and agree with the Trump disdain, but I hate that it has caused so many on both sides to turn a blind eye.

 

Lastly, we can pretend all we want that the leaders in the EU, Russia, and China arent trying to get over on other major countries and unions, but we would be lieing to ourselves. Everyone does it and if everyone is trying to do it, no one will succeed and we all win.

Well, the latest US trade deficit data we have, is a 10-year high, so the effectiveness of the measures taken could be put into question.

 

I'm more concerned about the methods which Trump is taking to implement those changes. The EU has been in recent years willing to engage in, and is actively seeking, opportunities to open markets with its allies - They recently completed significant deals with Canada and Japan, which have been worked on for quite some time (Japan received the car import tariff reduction Trump has been wanting so much, for example.) That just takes a bit of time, and diplomacy, to make a deal that satisfies all and allow a smooth transition while maintaining good relations. Trump instead sees it fit to bypass international laws and procedure, and purposely antagonizes trading partners, which leads to trade war, both sides seeing how reciprocal damage can be applied to each other, rather than seeking how to construct a mutually beneficial economical relationship.



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Ka-pi96 said:
Wyrdness said:

May hasn't got a clue because they were never expecting this outcome and they're were too scared to simply research the effects of a brexit first before returning to the people with the full facts of the situation, instead the clown who caused the whole situation fled to Spain leaving May in charge and she stupidly triggered article 51 with no plan that's why she's getting burned alive. The EU have simply done what they said they were going to do they have a list of their own they want adhered to for any deal only difference is they're not the ones facing immediate uncertainty ahead so they don't have to budge.

Running off to an EU country? Ironic that

That's not even the final insult he was in the media over in Spain last week saying he had no regrets over the whole situation and offering "advice" to May on what to do, ofcourse you don't have any regrets David you fled the country taking the fortune you hid from the taxman with you you prick leaving everyone else to figure this mess out what advice did you give May? Recommendations on which countries to run to?



JRPGfan said:
Victorlink87 said:

I would have to disagree to an extent. The US has been absolutely taken advantage of in the area of trade for decades. Tariffs have been imposed upon the US, but the US imposes no or much smaller tariffs resulting in massive trade deficits, half a trillion to a trillion dollars. Trump has helped level that playing field quite a bit. The main culprits of the unfair and lopsided deals for the US were the EU and China.

 

In all honesty all leaders of countries should be trying to do what is best for their country. Including not rolling over to unfair/bad deals.

 

Interestingly enough both parties agreed that US was losing in trade deals before Trump. It wasnt until Trump that the divide happened. I understand and agree with the Trump disdain, but I hate that it has caused so many on both sides to turn a blind eye.

 

Lastly, we can pretend all we want that the leaders in the EU, Russia, and China arent trying to get over on other major countries and unions, but we would be lieing to ourselves. Everyone does it and if everyone is trying to do it, no one will succeed and we all win.

 

Ofc every country ect looks out for itself.

However I disagree that EU is actively counter working the US intrests and trying to hurt the US.
Meanwhile it feels like Trump is actually doing that with the EU.

Also trade isnt unfair with the EU, for the US.
Why does the US buy abit more from EU than the other way around?

Well some of it, is without a doubt due to our Rules & laws, with reguards to alot of goods, that the US simply does not follow, so we cant import those.
Also who says that in order for someone to buy something, you have to also sell something of equal amount?

What if the EU doesnt want as many things from the US, as the other way around?
Would you not allow US cititizens to buy these things (from the EU)?
Would you force the EU to buy things they dont want from the US? (as its already doing)

These arnt easy to answear questions.
However Trump just looks at one nr, vs the other, without any thought, and says "thats unfair, their fault, we need to punish them".


Also this is way off topic, this thread is about Brexit, not Trump.

The best example of the US being shafted on trade comes from this previous year. Under Trump exports have gone up and imports have gone down. Yet, the trade deficit has gone up. Lets say this another way, we sold more and spent less yet increased our debt more than when we bought more and sold less. 

 

If you are provided with a very favorable deal that hurts the other party (like a free subscription for example), then without real notice that deal disappears then it feels like you have been taken advantage of, when its just being leveled.

 

As for your bold statements: I expect compromise that will help advance my society and services as everyone else should expect.

 

Anyway, as you say. This is about Brexit and the EU. Maybe when there is a thread about US trade we can discuss it in more detail. For now, lets take the US trade policies out of the equation and stay on topic. I will not post concerning this topic on this forum anymore.



Victorlink87 said:
JRPGfan said:

 

Ofc every country ect looks out for itself.

However I disagree that EU is actively counter working the US intrests and trying to hurt the US.
Meanwhile it feels like Trump is actually doing that with the EU.

Also trade isnt unfair with the EU, for the US.
Why does the US buy abit more from EU than the other way around?

Well some of it, is without a doubt due to our Rules & laws, with reguards to alot of goods, that the US simply does not follow, so we cant import those.
Also who says that in order for someone to buy something, you have to also sell something of equal amount?

What if the EU doesnt want as many things from the US, as the other way around?
Would you not allow US cititizens to buy these things (from the EU)?
Would you force the EU to buy things they dont want from the US? (as its already doing)

These arnt easy to answear questions.
However Trump just looks at one nr, vs the other, without any thought, and says "thats unfair, their fault, we need to punish them".


Also this is way off topic, this thread is about Brexit, not Trump.

The best example of the US being shafted on trade comes from this previous year. Under Trump exports have gone up and imports have gone down. Yet, the trade deficit has gone up. 

hmm, where did you get that from? It's self-contradictory, trade deficit is the value imported minus the value exported.

 

edit: yeah, imports increased significantly (nothing execpetional, has been the trend for a while)

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/imports

Last edited by palou - on 24 January 2019

Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

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palou said:
Victorlink87 said:

The best example of the US being shafted on trade comes from this previous year. Under Trump exports have gone up and imports have gone down. Yet, the trade deficit has gone up. 

hmm, where did you get that from? It's self-contradictory, trade deficit is the value imported minus the value exported.

Thanks for calling me out. It forced me to reread the government's report. My brain switched words  like import and export around.

You are right. I knew it didn't make a lot of sense outside of being very shafted on tariffs, which would never be enough to throw it that far off.



palou said:
Victorlink87 said:

The best example of the US being shafted on trade comes from this previous year. Under Trump exports have gone up and imports have gone down. Yet, the trade deficit has gone up. 

hmm, where did you get that from? It's self-contradictory, trade deficit is the value imported minus the value exported.

 

edit: yeah, imports increased significantly (nothing execpetional, has been the trend for a while)

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/imports

Alot of that is due to big american companies understanding that tarrifs will hurt their company, and their products so they are stockpileing stuff they need to import from abroad.

This is why dispite Trump putting on tarifs, the US has bought more from China than ever before.
Its just american companies stockpileing abit, and hopeing that Trump reverses things before they run out again.

if that doesnt happend, then the Tarif that Trump put onto goods, will come from the Prices Americans pay for items.
They will rise, not just the ones from China, even america products, that make use of things that need to be imported or assembled elsewhere.

Not only will it effect prices, it could effect jobs too.
Everything is interconnected these days, and I doubt Trump understands these things to the full degree.

I wouldnt be surprised if all this ends up doing, is something akin to shooting oneself in the foot.

 

Victorlink87 said:
palou said:

hmm, where did you get that from? It's self-contradictory, trade deficit is the value imported minus the value exported.

Thanks for calling me out. It forced me to reread the government's report. My brain switched words  like import and export around.

Happends to the best of us.

 

I still think it ironic, that so far the only effect of those tarifs trump put on, is that the US companys tried to stockpile things, resulting in the trade deficit growing to levels higherthan it usually has been.  Trump plans dont always work out lmao.



Victorlink87 said:
JRPGfan said:

Trump isnt against unfair trade,.... he just wants all trade to be unfair towards the other parties.
Thats basially what "america first" means. He is unwilling to deal, without there being huge gains for the US.

Also yes, divide and conquer, is probably what he is thinking, and what the russians/chinese want too.
But why would the US want a weak ally they can take advantage of? instead of a strong partner?

Ever heard the expression "with friends like you, who needs enemies?"
Basically trump doesnt set out to make friends, in his world view, screwing everyone over, even friends for profits, is the way of things.

In this way, he differs quite alot compaired to most past US presidents.

I would have to disagree to an extent. The US has been absolutely taken advantage of in the area of trade for decades. Tariffs have been imposed upon the US, but the US imposes no or much smaller tariffs resulting in massive trade deficits, half a trillion to a trillion dollars. Trump has helped level that playing field quite a bit. The main culprits of the unfair and lopsided deals for the US were the EU and China.

That's mostly a myth. For instance, he was riling against EU tariffs for agrarian products. The EU does have tariffs there, with a mean value of 4%... but the US mean tariffs for agrarian products before Trump was 7%, so higher as the European tariffs.

The trade deficit mostly comes from the fact that most manufacturing wandered off to countries like China, where the workers only get paid a small part of what they would have needed to pay an american worker, not from any unfair trade



Wyrdness said:
Scoobes said:

That's quite a conspiracy theory. You do realise that the the largest circulation of print media in the UK has been for anti-EU for well over a decade?

Print media don't run the country nor will they solve any of the current problems if you read them today they're banging on about the disasters ahead which tells you all you need to know about the media they were anti-EU just for the sake of a story. What Skee posted is not farfetched tbh.

Don't they? One of the first meetings Theresa May had after becoming PM was with the editor of the Daily Mail. Then their is this supposed quote from old Rupert Murdoch:

“I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. ‘That’s easy,’ he replied. ‘When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.’

The top selling papers are still banging on about how 'remoaner MPs' are about to betray the 'will of the people' whilst shoving in lies from various ERG members.

The ones talking about the disasters ahead tend to be lower circulation papers like The Guardian or Independent.



Tariffs are headline news, it's the quotas and restrictions that are bullshit.

Australian Beef has 80% tariffs. It's not just economics. Brits would prefer to give their money to Ozzies and Kiwis over France and Germany.

We're fine with free trade (we invented it). We're set to embarass the EU and Trump with how 'free trade' we are.

Abolishing tariffs and lowering prices makes everyone richer. If the EU wants to apply tariffs, let them. We still win with unilateral tariff reductions and we get to fuck eurodisneyland at the same time.



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