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JRPGfan said:
Victorlink87 said:

That was a good read. Thank you. 

My goodness its a lot. I imagine giving citizenship to those who have been in the country  "x" amount of years would be important and wise. 

Oh Northern Ireland. Hopefully the Troubles war wouldn't return.

I have to ask again, why did the past Brexit deal fail?

Because their politicans have sold the public on lies, that everything would "Just work out" and it would be easy to be as well off, on their own.
The truth is, they havnt been able to get anywhere near what they promised the people.

So now they are all afraid to support it, its better than nothing, but its not near enough for them to support it.
The problem is, the EU has already said, this is as good as it gets.

The UK cant just leave, and get as good or better deals, than they had as members in the EU.
If it worked out like that, it would encurage other countries to try leaving as well.

The UK is now finding that, getting things as well, as they had it as members of the EU, will be hard.
And are unable to actknowledge the facts of the situtation, so in-fighting as broken out, theres power struggles for controll, and everyone has their own oppinions on how to "fix" things, and is unwilling to follow the other parties suggestions.

Basically the politicans are thinking more about their voteing results next election, than the good of the country.

The short of it? Its gonna hurt their economy & jobs, theres no two ways about it.

Sounds like it will hurt severly because of a lack of planning. From a social standpoint I understand why people wanted out, but economically it sounds like once you are in you should stay in.

 

So, the voting results next election aren't a problem only the US deals with. Glad we aren't alone.

 

Sorry for all of my ignorance. I have known some of the most basic of basics in regards to Brexit. However, the US is dealing with so much division I have been unable to really pay attention to another country's issues. 

 

I feel a lot more educated about the whole issue now. Seems like the politicans need to do what they were elected to do and support the country moving forward.



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JRPGfan said:
Victorlink87 said:

That was a good listen. Sounds like a Brexit plan is desperately needed. If the hang up is on quota of goods the plan should include a proposal to have a quota reasonable for the UK's size. 

I imagine if the quota were reasonable you would have the US on board quickly as Donald Trump is pretty anti-EU and pro-trade. Then the others would follow. I may be making this too simple.

Yes Trump is Anti-EU, the USA's main allies.
Why? because he doesnt care about anyone but himself, and only marginally the US.

Remember the "America First" chants?

My guess was more in the line of divide and conquer. An unified Europe is much harder to control than all the little countries on their own. Like the video on the WTO rules in a post before pointed out, the EU has much more power and weight when it comes to trade deals, but if they were all divided the US could impose their rules in those deals. He riled against "unfair trade deals", remember? However, the only thing "unfair" to Amercans in those deals is that unlike some historical deals the US are not, and cannot, imposing their companies and economic power in those deals anymore. And he sells that as unfair to Americans



Bofferbrauer2 said:
JRPGfan said:

Yes Trump is Anti-EU, the USA's main allies.
Why? because he doesnt care about anyone but himself, and only marginally the US.

Remember the "America First" chants?

My guess was more in the line of divide and conquer. An unified Europe is much harder to control than all the little countries on their own. Like the video on the WTO rules in a post before pointed out, the EU has much more power and weight when it comes to trade deals, but if they were all divided the US could impose their rules in those deals. He riled against "unfair trade deals", remember? However, the only thing "unfair" to Amercans in those deals is that unlike some historical deals the US are not, and cannot, imposing their companies and economic power in those deals anymore. And he sells that as unfair to Americans

Trump isnt against unfair trade,.... he just wants all trade to be unfair towards the other parties.
Thats basially what "america first" means. He is unwilling to deal, without there being huge gains for the US.

Also yes, divide and conquer, is probably what he is thinking, and what the russians/chinese want too.
But why would the US want a weak ally they can take advantage of? instead of a strong partner?

Ever heard the expression "with friends like you, who needs enemies?"
Basically trump doesnt set out to make friends, in his world view, screwing everyone over, even friends for profits, is the way of things.

In this way, he differs quite alot compaired to most past US presidents.



 

 

JRPGfan said:
Victorlink87 said:
To my British cousins. Help me understand. Why hasnt brexit happened yet? What's the hang up? Sorry, really, I am ignorant of the specifics and just want to know. I do trust this community to be relatively balanced.

It hasnt happend yet..... the UK leaves the EU on march 29th (I thinki it was).

Its looking like the UK are makeing a mess of things, and will have no deals in place for that day.

Reguardless of laws/trade deals ect, it kicks in on the 29th, and it looks like the uk, wants to put on a blindfold and jump off a cliff.

palou said: 
Victorlink87 said: 

What are the concerns surrounding not having a deal and why did the previous proposal fail? 

The EU is by far the largest trade partner of the UK. A no-deal brexit would mean, that there would be an immediate implementation of tariffs (as dictated by the WTO between two members without other agreements) and border checks. If having tariffs/border checks is viewed as a positive or negative is a debate I won't touch, but the fact that it is so *sudden* in itself creates significant logistic issues, since the existing infrastructure doesn't assume any such barriers (which various sectors of the government and private enterprises are trying to prepare for - we'll see how effective it is.) For example, a big part of UK medical supplies come from the EU - the UK national health service is consequently prepping for a temporary shortage. (I would assume they would have a fair handle of what's necessary - I wouldn't expect people to die due to this.) The majority of the food in the UK comes from the EU; Again, probably no starvations in Britain, no need to be melodramatic; but a significant price hike, in the transition, is very possible. As a whole, it's mostly going to be a very *expensive* procedure, for both governments, and the private sector, needing to make immediate adjustments to the market situation. 

A thing I don't understand is blaming just May for this mess. Couldn't the members of Parliament give May a list of points she should have asked for when dealing with the EU, and possibly a confidential minimum list to settle on if not all points were accepted by the counterpart, BEFORE she started discussing the deal? 

 



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Alby_da_Wolf said:

 

 

JRPGfan said:

It hasnt happend yet..... the UK leaves the EU on march 29th (I thinki it was).

Its looking like the UK are makeing a mess of things, and will have no deals in place for that day.

Reguardless of laws/trade deals ect, it kicks in on the 29th, and it looks like the uk, wants to put on a blindfold and jump off a cliff.

palou said: 

The EU is by far the largest trade partner of the UK. A no-deal brexit would mean, that there would be an immediate implementation of tariffs (as dictated by the WTO between two members without other agreements) and border checks. If having tariffs/border checks is viewed as a positive or negative is a debate I won't touch, but the fact that it is so *sudden* in itself creates significant logistic issues, since the existing infrastructure doesn't assume any such barriers (which various sectors of the government and private enterprises are trying to prepare for - we'll see how effective it is.) For example, a big part of UK medical supplies come from the EU - the UK national health service is consequently prepping for a temporary shortage. (I would assume they would have a fair handle of what's necessary - I wouldn't expect people to die due to this.) The majority of the food in the UK comes from the EU; Again, probably no starvations in Britain, no need to be melodramatic; but a significant price hike, in the transition, is very possible. As a whole, it's mostly going to be a very *expensive* procedure, for both governments, and the private sector, needing to make immediate adjustments to the market situation. 

A thing I don't understand is blaming just May for this mess. Couldn't the members of Parliament give May a list of points she should have asked for when dealing with the EU, and possibly a confidential minimum list to settle on if not all points were accepted by the counterpart, BEFORE she started discussing the deal? 

 

Yeah, she was task to fulfil the wishes of those people who voted for Brexit but that's obviously impossible since many of those wishes weren't grounded in reality.



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Alby_da_Wolf said:

 

 

JRPGfan said:

It hasnt happend yet..... the UK leaves the EU on march 29th (I thinki it was).

Its looking like the UK are makeing a mess of things, and will have no deals in place for that day.

Reguardless of laws/trade deals ect, it kicks in on the 29th, and it looks like the uk, wants to put on a blindfold and jump off a cliff.

palou said: 

The EU is by far the largest trade partner of the UK. A no-deal brexit would mean, that there would be an immediate implementation of tariffs (as dictated by the WTO between two members without other agreements) and border checks. If having tariffs/border checks is viewed as a positive or negative is a debate I won't touch, but the fact that it is so *sudden* in itself creates significant logistic issues, since the existing infrastructure doesn't assume any such barriers (which various sectors of the government and private enterprises are trying to prepare for - we'll see how effective it is.) For example, a big part of UK medical supplies come from the EU - the UK national health service is consequently prepping for a temporary shortage. (I would assume they would have a fair handle of what's necessary - I wouldn't expect people to die due to this.) The majority of the food in the UK comes from the EU; Again, probably no starvations in Britain, no need to be melodramatic; but a significant price hike, in the transition, is very possible. As a whole, it's mostly going to be a very *expensive* procedure, for both governments, and the private sector, needing to make immediate adjustments to the market situation. 

A thing I don't understand is blaming just May for this mess. Couldn't the members of Parliament give May a list of points she should have asked for when dealing with the EU, and possibly a confidential minimum list to settle on if not all points were accepted by the counterpart, BEFORE she started discussing the deal? 

 

Pretty sure they did. Also sure that several of those points would have been refused outright from the EU.

Blaming it on May is unfair, it's due to the Parliament demanding much more than the EU is willing to give, and while the EU has made that very clear, the Parliament leaders don't want to relent on their demands. In other words May is sitting between a Rock and a hard place, having to juggle the demands of her qualition partners with what the EU is willing to give, which is basically an impossible task.



Alby_da_Wolf said:

 

 

JRPGfan said:

It hasnt happend yet..... the UK leaves the EU on march 29th (I thinki it was).

Its looking like the UK are makeing a mess of things, and will have no deals in place for that day.

Reguardless of laws/trade deals ect, it kicks in on the 29th, and it looks like the uk, wants to put on a blindfold and jump off a cliff.

palou said: 

The EU is by far the largest trade partner of the UK. A no-deal brexit would mean, that there would be an immediate implementation of tariffs (as dictated by the WTO between two members without other agreements) and border checks. If having tariffs/border checks is viewed as a positive or negative is a debate I won't touch, but the fact that it is so *sudden* in itself creates significant logistic issues, since the existing infrastructure doesn't assume any such barriers (which various sectors of the government and private enterprises are trying to prepare for - we'll see how effective it is.) For example, a big part of UK medical supplies come from the EU - the UK national health service is consequently prepping for a temporary shortage. (I would assume they would have a fair handle of what's necessary - I wouldn't expect people to die due to this.) The majority of the food in the UK comes from the EU; Again, probably no starvations in Britain, no need to be melodramatic; but a significant price hike, in the transition, is very possible. As a whole, it's mostly going to be a very *expensive* procedure, for both governments, and the private sector, needing to make immediate adjustments to the market situation. 

A thing I don't understand is blaming just May for this mess. Couldn't the members of Parliament give May a list of points she should have asked for when dealing with the EU, and possibly a confidential minimum list to settle on if not all points were accepted by the counterpart, BEFORE she started discussing the deal? 

 

They did it the dumb way....

Instead of all getting together and agreeing on things before even voteing, they took the vote, which won, and then invoked acticle 50.
There are rules in place for how members should leave the EU. One of those is a time limit, place upon the nation when it has declaired it wants to leave.

So they had time to work things out, they just assumed it would be enough.

naturally what happends?

they all come up with things they want, in the intrests of those who voted them in. So she gathered a ton of unreasonable requests and set out to get a deal in place.

Naturally the EU saw them, and negociated back and forth with her, until a deal was in place.

however that deal, didnt get every little unreasonable request everyone wanted, so it was voted down.

So now it looks like there will be no agreements in place before hand.

 

Its like setting out to build a house, without a plan, and 10 differnt architects that all want a differnt looking house.
That was mays job.... naturally none was pleased with the results.



JRPGfan said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

My guess was more in the line of divide and conquer. An unified Europe is much harder to control than all the little countries on their own. Like the video on the WTO rules in a post before pointed out, the EU has much more power and weight when it comes to trade deals, but if they were all divided the US could impose their rules in those deals. He riled against "unfair trade deals", remember? However, the only thing "unfair" to Amercans in those deals is that unlike some historical deals the US are not, and cannot, imposing their companies and economic power in those deals anymore. And he sells that as unfair to Americans

Trump isnt against unfair trade,.... he just wants all trade to be unfair towards the other parties.
Thats basially what "america first" means. He is unwilling to deal, without there being huge gains for the US.

Also yes, divide and conquer, is probably what he is thinking, and what the russians/chinese want too.
But why would the US want a weak ally they can take advantage of? instead of a strong partner?

Ever heard the expression "with friends like you, who needs enemies?"
Basically trump doesnt set out to make friends, in his world view, screwing everyone over, even friends for profits, is the way of things.

In this way, he differs quite alot compaired to most past US presidents.

I would have to disagree to an extent. The US has been absolutely taken advantage of in the area of trade for decades. Tariffs have been imposed upon the US, but the US imposes no or much smaller tariffs resulting in massive trade deficits, half a trillion to a trillion dollars. Trump has helped level that playing field quite a bit. The main culprits of the unfair and lopsided deals for the US were the EU and China.

 

In all honesty all leaders of countries should be trying to do what is best for their country. Including not rolling over to unfair/bad deals.

 

Interestingly enough both parties agreed that US was losing in trade deals before Trump. It wasnt until Trump that the divide happened. I understand and agree with the Trump disdain, but I hate that it has caused so many on both sides to turn a blind eye.

 

Lastly, we can pretend all we want that the leaders in the EU, Russia, and China arent trying to get over on other major countries and unions, but we would be lieing to ourselves. Everyone does it and if everyone is trying to do it, no one will succeed and we all win.



Victorlink87 said:
JRPGfan said:

Trump isnt against unfair trade,.... he just wants all trade to be unfair towards the other parties.
Thats basially what "america first" means. He is unwilling to deal, without there being huge gains for the US.

Also yes, divide and conquer, is probably what he is thinking, and what the russians/chinese want too.
But why would the US want a weak ally they can take advantage of? instead of a strong partner?

Ever heard the expression "with friends like you, who needs enemies?"
Basically trump doesnt set out to make friends, in his world view, screwing everyone over, even friends for profits, is the way of things.

In this way, he differs quite alot compaired to most past US presidents.

I would have to disagree to an extent. The US has been absolutely taken advantage of in the area of trade for decades. Tariffs have been imposed upon the US, but the US imposes no or much smaller tariffs resulting in massive trade deficits, half a trillion to a trillion dollars. Trump has helped level that playing field quite a bit. The main culprits of the unfair and lopsided deals for the US were the EU and China.

 

In all honesty all leaders of countries should be trying to do what is best for their country. Including not rolling over to unfair/bad deals.

 

Interestingly enough both parties agreed that US was losing in trade deals before Trump. It wasnt until Trump that the divide happened. I understand and agree with the Trump disdain, but I hate that it has caused so many on both sides to turn a blind eye.

 

Lastly, we can pretend all we want that the leaders in the EU, Russia, and China arent trying to get over on other major countries and unions, but we would be lieing to ourselves. Everyone does it and if everyone is trying to do it, no one will succeed and we all win.

 

Ofc every country ect looks out for itself.

However I disagree that EU is actively counter working the US intrests and trying to hurt the US.
Meanwhile it feels like Trump is actually doing that with the EU.

Also trade isnt unfair with the EU, for the US.
Why does the US buy abit more from EU than the other way around?

Well some of it, is without a doubt due to our Rules & laws, with reguards to alot of goods, that the US simply does not follow, so we cant import those.
Also who says that in order for someone to buy something, you have to also sell something of equal amount?

What if the EU doesnt want as many things from the US, as the other way around?
Would you not allow US cititizens to buy these things (from the EU)?
Would you force the EU to buy things they dont want from the US? (as its already doing)

These arnt easy to answear questions.
However Trump just looks at one nr, vs the other, without any thought, and says "thats unfair, their fault, we need to punish them".


Also this is way off topic, this thread is about Brexit, not Trump.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 24 January 2019

Bofferbrauer2 said:
Wyrdness said:

Print media don't run the country nor will they solve any of the current problems if you read them today they're banging on about the disasters ahead which tells you all you need to know about the media they were anti-EU just for the sake of a story. What Skee posted is not farfetched tbh.

Well, considering the majority is controlled by Rupert Murdock and are staunch Brexiteers, I'd say it is very far-fectched, even more so that May herself ruled it out (starts at 2:15):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg6LxVoTzF4

While we're at the press, 30 years old and still accurate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M&feature=player_detailpage#t=54s

Do not buy the BS the pro Brexit camp put out because as JRPGfan pointed out with the head of Dyson they're full of contradictions they'd say one thing then do the opposite or even a U-turn.