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Forums - Sony Discussion - PlayStation Nation | an HBO original

coolbeans said:
DonFerrari said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8YGabEFaWI

Jim Ryan taking some jabs at MS and their acquisitions and how Sony prefers to go organically growth.

This ranks among the most tedious & stupid arguments leveraged by fanboys.  In all likelihood, they've scoped out big acquisition deals too but inevitably been priced out.

Those negotiations are NDA, so it is very unlikely that both companies were trying to bid for the same companies.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
coolbeans said:
DonFerrari said:

Those negotiations are NDA, so it is very unlikely that both companies were trying to bid for the same companies.

I don't understand how you could reach said conclusion.  If a big publisher with well-established IPs is communicating they're willing to be purchased, the bigger players are going to come to see if they've got a shot.  This is a bog-standard expectation.

Regardless of this point, the "organically grown" line regarding acquisitions should just be considered artificial fanboy points.

Which of those big players have you seem saying they want to be purchased?

Why organically growth is a fanboy point? Even more when a lot of the fanbase have been asking for increasing number of studios and creation of studios from the ground.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

So Best Buy Canada just fully charged my card for the console, so not long to go now.



Ryan Biniecki has posted his launch guide.



coolbeans said:
DonFerrari said:

Which of those big players have you seem saying they want to be purchased?

Why organically growth is a fanboy point? Even more when a lot of the fanbase have been asking for increasing number of studios and creation of studios from the ground.

Within the gaming sphere: AT&T signaled its willingness to sell WB Interactive division to offset the obscene amount of debt it currently has.  EA, Take-Two, Activision, and Microsoft had shown interest (either in their own words or according to AT&T higher-ups).  Remove what I said about "well-established IPs" and change "publisher" to x, y, or z, and that sentence could be applied to dozens of other market sectors.  That's why it's bog-standard to me.

On its own, it's not.  It can just be a descriptor.  Through the lens of "console wars," it's a cheap gotcha masquerading as a point.  These businesses aren't cultivating a fucking garden or investing in a "relationship" before marriage.  It's an industry that runs on money for creatives to achieve their vision.  As such, how said companies go about with their money is going to depend on their best successes.  Just look at what's consistently made it for Microsoft 3 & 4 gens in: Gears of War, Halo, and Forza.  Fable IS coming back was effectively extinct for a whole gen.  Whether fanboys like it or not, Microsoft's history reveals an uncanny knack to scout 3rd-party talent that've made the Xbox brand what it is today.  Compare that to homegrown ventures during 8th gen (Lionhead, Press Play, the Project Spark team) and it's clear which path brings them more consistent success.

That's what makes it so artificial: how can you possibly expect a business to not make the kind of moves that've bred the most success for them?  Of all people Jim Ryan should know that; and I believe he does.  That's what makes MBG's title so cringe: "PlayStation Boss who would do the same thing IF his company had that much money takes shots at company who does."

You understand you're combining two different things here, right?  Because I've never caught wind of a lot of the fanbase's demands extending to "we want to you to create a bunch of new studios from the ground-up."  The pulse of the fanbase, AND the majority of critics, stuck to something much simpler: they simply need more studios.  Not to mention a couple of those ARE built from the ground-up (World's Edge & The Initiative) and two others are 2nd-party studios brought into the fold (Playground Games & Undead Labs).

You gave one example (which I think have been discontinued) to explain the purchase of studios that weren't talking about wanting to be bought?

You do know that Sony could have bought those devs (including Bethesda) right? They prefer to use a lot less money and still get the result they want. As put by him, they increased studio count, number of teams and budget of their games without making big purchases. That is basically a difference in strategy sure based on what each business see as the most effective measure for them.

Sony fanbase on this forum for certain are asking to build new studios and or increase teams. Sure there are some studios they discuss and are pleased with rumors, but most of what is seem is requests for internal growth (similar to criticism that MS is buying without even showing results of their previous purchases, plus the older studios being run dry). Not sure why you flipped me talking about Sony fanbase requests with MS fanbase.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
coolbeans said:
DonFerrari said:

You gave one example (which I think have been discontinued) to explain the purchase of studios that weren't talking about wanting to be bought?

You do know that Sony could have bought those devs (including Bethesda) right? They prefer to use a lot less money and still get the result they want. As put by him, they increased studio count, number of teams and budget of their games without making big purchases. That is basically a difference in strategy sure based on what each business see as the most effective measure for them.

Sony fanbase on this forum for certain are asking to build new studios and or increase teams. Sure there are some studios they discuss and are pleased with rumors, but most of what is seem is requests for internal growth (similar to criticism that MS is buying without even showing results of their previous purchases, plus the older studios being run dry). Not sure why you flipped me talking about Sony fanbase requests with MS fanbase.

Sigh...

You're giving me that feeling of losing the plot while continuing to argue again.  

What do you mean?  I was giving a typical rebuttal to your "it is very unlikely that both companies were trying to bid for the same companies" line by just pointing out how such deals tend to happen: there's likely a select few bigger companies vying for the smaller company's attention.  I provided an example of multiple bigger publishers (financially) who were interested in acquiring WB Interactive.  I don't follow how you think the likes of Sony weren't at least interested in pursuing their options of purchasing ZeniMax as well--especially since Zeni had been open about being acquired before.  You asked for an example and I provided one.  Any more debate going down this avenue is going to look like you're moving the goalposts.

I mean...Sony could do a number of things.  Beating MS' price of $7.5billion for ZeniMax, though?  Sure, they have more net worth that that, but Jim Ryan would've had to make a blood oath to those shareholders for them to be okay with it.  But that's beside the point.  "That is basically a difference in strategy..."  So you agree with my point, then?  That using this "organically grown" as some kind of fanboy 'own' (as is often personified on the internet) is a ridiculous thing to do?

I got lost in the weeds there.  I thought your "fanboy point?" part was talking about how conversely that's what MS fans wanted or something.  Anyways...

So if you had evidence of Zenimax wanting to be purchased (or Ninja Theory or the others, from what I remember what was public is that they liked to be independent) why not give it instead of going for one that wasn't purchased and mother company forfeit the intent to sell? Sure big players are looking on the market to buy companies (Sony also have said that they look to increase their portfolio when that makes sense). I don't remember seeing Zenimax talking about wanting to be bought.

How would Sony know how much MS offered to ZeniMax and outbid them if that information is classified? Again if you have source that ZeniMax wanted to be purchased, a pricetag of how much they wanted or how much MS was offering before the deal being closed (a time by which Sony even if willing wouldn't be able to outbid anymore) please provide.

The company I work for was bought two years ago, and the company that bought it merged last year. From what we learnt after besides the company never saying it wanting to be bought, the first leaks of it occurred months after the deal was already signed and pre-agreement to start the discussion were almost one or two years prior to that. So really, the concept of binding war to buy the studios/publishers MS bought doesn't make much sense. The WB Studios sure could have been a bid war, it was publicly know and announced with also potential buyers also disclosed, that isn't the case for the purchases we know. Even Insomniac from what we know refused to be bought by Sony several times, and when it was know it had a deal it was long after it was signed so there wasn't really anything MS could do at that time. Unless you think Sony and MS go every month to each dev offering money to see if they accept.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

coolbeans said:
DonFerrari said:

You gave one example (which I think have been discontinued) to explain the purchase of studios that weren't talking about wanting to be bought?

You do know that Sony could have bought those devs (including Bethesda) right? They prefer to use a lot less money and still get the result they want. As put by him, they increased studio count, number of teams and budget of their games without making big purchases. That is basically a difference in strategy sure based on what each business see as the most effective measure for them.

Sony fanbase on this forum for certain are asking to build new studios and or increase teams. Sure there are some studios they discuss and are pleased with rumors, but most of what is seem is requests for internal growth (similar to criticism that MS is buying without even showing results of their previous purchases, plus the older studios being run dry). Not sure why you flipped me talking about Sony fanbase requests with MS fanbase.

Sigh...

You're giving me that feeling of losing the plot while continuing to argue again.  

What do you mean?  I was giving a typical rebuttal to your "it is very unlikely that both companies were trying to bid for the same companies" line by just pointing out how such deals tend to happen: there's likely a select few bigger companies vying for the smaller company's attention.  I provided an example of multiple bigger publishers (financially) who were interested in acquiring WB Interactive.  I don't follow how you think the likes of Sony weren't at least interested in pursuing their options of purchasing ZeniMax as well--especially since Zeni had been open about being acquired before.  You asked for an example and I provided one.  Any more debate going down this avenue is going to look like you're moving the goalposts.

I mean...Sony could do a number of things.  Beating MS' price of $7.5billion for ZeniMax, though?  Sure, they have more net worth that that, but Jim Ryan would've had to make a blood oath to those shareholders for them to be okay with it.  But that's beside the point.  "That is basically a difference in strategy..."  So you agree with my point, then?  That using this "organically grown" as some kind of fanboy 'own' (as is often personified on the internet) is a ridiculous thing to do?

I got lost in the weeds there.  I thought your "fanboy point?" part was talking about how conversely that's what MS fans wanted or something.  Anyways...

Could someone please explain to me why this sort of back-and-forth is okay but I was banned from criticising Microsoft for their very real and very obvious faults?



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coolbeans said:
DonFerrari said:

So if you had evidence of Zenimax wanting to be purchased (or Ninja Theory or the others, from what I remember what was public is that they liked to be independent) why not give it instead of going for one that wasn't purchased and mother company forfeit the intent to sell? Sure big players are looking on the market to buy companies (Sony also have said that they look to increase their portfolio when that makes sense). I don't remember seeing Zenimax talking about wanting to be bought.

How would Sony know how much MS offered to ZeniMax and outbid them if that information is classified? Again if you have source that ZeniMax wanted to be purchased, a pricetag of how much they wanted or how much MS was offering before the deal being closed (a time by which Sony even if willing wouldn't be able to outbid anymore) please provide.

The company I work for was bought two years ago, and the company that bought it merged last year. From what we learnt after besides the company never saying it wanting to be bought, the first leaks of it occurred months after the deal was already signed and pre-agreement to start the discussion were almost one or two years prior to that. So really, the concept of binding war to buy the studios/publishers MS bought doesn't make much sense. The WB Studios sure could have been a bid war, it was publicly know and announced with also potential buyers also disclosed, that isn't the case for the purchases we know. Even Insomniac from what we know refused to be bought by Sony several times, and when it was know it had a deal it was long after it was signed so there wasn't really anything MS could do at that time. Unless you think Sony and MS go every month to each dev offering money to see if they accept.

Put simply: because I was under no obligation to based on what you initially asked.  This part of the chain started off with "...it is very unlikely that both companies were trying to bid for the same companies."  Correct me if I'm wrong but I figured that meant both MS & Sony.  I respond back with a generalized statement that kind of bidding/acquisition stuff happens quite often and provided an example.  It seems like you agree with my general sentiment now, so I'm even more confused why you're pushing this argument.

What are you talking about?  This demand is even more tenuous than the previous.  I'm not making a declarative statement as though Sony, MS, & other companies were at a ZeniMax auction.  I'm responding to the context of what you'd previously said "Sony could have purchased any of these studios too."  Your anecdotal story, though interesting, doesn't really progress this argument any further.  And I never even intimated I believed this is what happens at any time in this conversation.  That's just plucked out of nowhere.

Runa216 said:
Could someone please explain to me why this sort of back-and-forth is okay but I was banned from criticising Microsoft for their very real and very obvious faults?

My best guess: doesn't violate any site rules or expected decorum.  Could be crazy though.  Report it if you feel so inclined.  But I must ask you not to reply back to me if you're only complaining about what a mod did to you at some other time.  I'm trying to keep my full attention on Don's quick, illuminating responses that have to do with the topic(s) at hand.  Accept my sincerest thanks in advance, fellow patron of the PlayStation Arts.

And you say I'm the one moving goal posts? I said it was unlikely that they were bidding for the same companies (yes MS and Sony), so the ones that MS bought there was no hint that Sony even tried to offer anything and same for Insomniac there is no sign that MS tried. You countered saying that companies were saying they wanted to be bought, which wasn't true for any of the afore mentioned companies and then you presented a company that first Sony wasn't listed among the ones that were interested in buying it and second decided not to sell. So your evidence doesn't really support your claim.

You said ZeniMax announced they were wishing to be purchased, so if you don't have any evidence of that them it is just you making speculation.

So all in all, you don't have any evidence that Sony tried to buy any of these companies and were outbid by MS, nor you can even prove that Sony strategy isn't doing organically growth.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Guys, you don't necessarily disagree.
- DonFerrari is saying that the premise of the video is right in that Sony's strategy seems to be to found new studios internally, grow existing studios in size with more teams, and only acquire studios if they're already 2nd party.
- Coolbeans is saying that the idea on forums that console makers should only found new studios internally or grow their existing ones instead of acquiring 3rd parties doesn't always make sense in reality and that Sony would probably buy 3rd parties as well if the opportunity arises.

You're both right.
- Internally: Sony's current list of studios consists of internally founded (Pixelopus, Polyphony Digital, SIE Japan, SIE London, SIE San Diego, SIE Santa Monica) and acquired 2nd party studios (Bend, Guerrilla, Insomniac, Media Molecule, Naughty Dog, Sucker Punch). Some of these have then grown over time (SIE Japan, SIE Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Guerrilla, Insomniac are all said to be multi-team studios now).
- Externally: The recent quote from Jim Ryan was: "We plan to grow our studio capability organically but where we can bolster our in-house capability with selective M&A that might be possible." Considering that M&A means mergers and acquisitions, it's obvious that Sony will consider acquiring studios as well if said studios match or strategically broaden their lineup.



Replicant said:

Guys, you don't necessarily disagree.
- DonFerrari is saying that the premise of the video is right in that Sony's strategy seems to be to found new studios internally, grow existing studios in size with more teams, and only acquire studios if they're already 2nd party.
- Coolbeans is saying that the idea on forums that console makers should only found new studios internally or grow their existing ones instead of acquiring 3rd parties doesn't always make sense in reality and that Sony would probably buy 3rd parties as well if the opportunity arises.

You're both right.
- Internally: Sony's current list of studios consists of internally founded (Pixelopus, Polyphony Digital, SIE Japan, SIE London, SIE San Diego, SIE Santa Monica) and acquired 2nd party studios (Bend, Guerrilla, Insomniac, Media Molecule, Naughty Dog, Sucker Punch). Some of these have then grown over time (SIE Japan, SIE Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Guerrilla, Insomniac are all said to be multi-team studios now).
- Externally: The recent quote from Jim Ryan was: "We plan to grow our studio capability organically but where we can bolster our in-house capability with selective M&A that might be possible." Considering that M&A means mergers and acquisitions, it's obvious that Sony will consider acquiring studios as well if said studios match or strategically broaden their lineup.

The Jab Jim gave was using specific words to be dismissive of what MS was doing (saying like MS is throwing away indiscriminate money around to buy studios) while Sony is being smart by building their studios and winning prizes as sales.

The point of discussion was basically he saying that Sony don't have money to buy studios and was outbid by MS (for the first we know Sony have enough to buy the studios MS bought, perhaps ZeniMax would be a hard approval, and for the second there isn't any evidence that Sony tried to buy those studios or that these studios said they wanted to be bought).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."