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Forums - Politics - 30,000 Britons Demand Trump

contestgamer said:
VGPolyglot said:

I'm not sure what those have to do with socialism.

a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

community = state.

means of production, distribution and exchange = state owned power, roads, etc

Here is where you go wrong, Contestgamer: you make the mistake of equating society with state institutions (e.g. police, courts, prisons). If this is, in fact, the case then how is the phenomenon of anarchist socialism even possible? How, for example, is what you see right now in Chiapas or Rojava even possible in your view of what socialism is? If it exists in the real world, it requires an explanation, after all.

Perhaps another source of confusion may be one's mental conflation of state and government. Anarchist socialists, such as yours truly for example, oppose the state but not government at a conceptual level. We are not, as a certain stigma has it, supporters of chaos. In point of fact, anarchist revolutions are usually a product of chaos unintentionally created by a repressive police state, often emerging in the context of a civil war being fought thereby, for instance. We are not agents of chaos. We're not actually advocating the kind of community you saw in Pirates of the Caribbean. :P Anarchism is entirely compatible with, for example, the local populace voluntarily gathering, crafting, and voting upon a general economic plan for production and distribution within said community, as well as the crafting of rules and community-based enforcement thereof. The enactment of legislation does not end with the abolition of the state, as far as I am concerned, and as far as nearly all anarchists are concerned. What ends is the separation of these processes from the population itself.

Personally, I regard myself specifically as a communalist. Communalists favor the reorganization of humanity into giant networks of autonomous communes. In connection to the question of government, this means that I advocate the introduction of direct or, if you will, participatory democracy; a type of political organization wherein people vote on public policies directly rather than through elected representatives and which is obviously only viable at the local level. I think it's hard to rationally argue that this kind of localism equates to the introduction of "bigger government" or that the introduction of participatory democracy and things like community policing and restorative justice in place of electoral or non-democracy and traditional policing, courts, and prisons is the same thing as implementing a police state. (Communalists are also very pragmatic and believe in the possibility of things like peaceful revolutions that can be achieved, at least in part, through electoral avenues, it may be worth adding, in contrast to some other socialist libertarians and anarchists.)

The introduction of participatory democracy might alternatively, in economic terms, be described as bringing the government fully under social management. If feudal governance might be defined as a system wherein the government is privately owned (e.g. by a particular family or religious institution, general, or political party), then democracy, to the extent that it exists, can be characterized as the creation of a public sector; as the socialization of government. Radical democracy, such as I advocate, then is the completion of this task. In other words, in my mind, to the extent that a "socialist" government fails the democracy test, it also fails the socialism test.

Yes, I believe that the local community should basically own everything and distribute human necessities according to need. I also believe that both the government and the economy should be managed in a radically democratic fashion. I don't see how that's repressive.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 08 April 2018

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contestgamer said:
deskpro2k3 said:

no, socialism does not mean to create a all-powerful government, and it doesn't want big corporate businesses to control society either. ----the wealthy 1% make basic economic decisions that affects millions, and resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs, such as social investments like mass transit, housing, education, medicine, and energy.

Yes, and that's exactly how I like it and how it should be in nature. Most social animals have a hierarchy that leads to amassing of resources towards the top. Trying to collectively meet human needs is socialist.

That does not work. Take Trinidad & Tobago for example. T&T is one of the wealthiest countries in the Caribbean as well as having one of the highest GDP (PPP) per capita in the Americas, and yet most of T&T citizens are poor, the roads are in bad condition, and hardly any police stations for miles etc. So where is that wealth going? Definitely not towards human needs.



deskpro2k3 said:
contestgamer said:

Yes, and that's exactly how I like it and how it should be in nature. Most social animals have a hierarchy that leads to amassing of resources towards the top. Trying to collectively meet human needs is socialist.

That does not work. Take Trinidad & Tobago for example. T&T is one of the wealthiest countries in the Caribbean as well as having one of the highest GDP (PPP) per capita in the Americas, and yet most of T&T citizens are poor, the roads are in bad condition, and hardly any police stations for miles etc. So where is that wealth going? Definitely not towards human needs.

I think he's saying that he doesn't care if there are a lot of poor people.



deskpro2k3 said:
contestgamer said:

Yes, and that's exactly how I like it and how it should be in nature. Most social animals have a hierarchy that leads to amassing of resources towards the top. Trying to collectively meet human needs is socialist.

That does not work. Take Trinidad & Tobago for example. T&T is one of the wealthiest countries in the Caribbean as well as having one of the highest GDP (PPP) per capita in the Americas, and yet most of T&T citizens are poor, the roads are in bad condition, and hardly any police stations for miles etc. So where is that wealth going? Definitely not towards human needs.

I don't want wealth going towards human needs, it should be going to whoever is producing it. Needs are the individuals job to ensure for themselves. Individual needs if you will. Society shouldnt be concerned with ensuring human needs are met, individuals can attempt to meet them for themselves and fail or succeed. 



contestgamer said:
VGPolyglot said:

I'm not sure what those have to do with socialism.

a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

community = state.

means of production, distribution and exchange = state owned power, roads, etc

You are seriously underqualified to understand basic political concepts. Do not ridicule yourself and say to anyone that the community and the state are the same thing. Do some essential reading or condemn yourself to being clueless - it's up to you to decide what kind of man you wish to be.



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Jaicee said:
contestgamer said:

a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

community = state.

means of production, distribution and exchange = state owned power, roads, etc

Here is where you go wrong, Contestgamer: you make the mistake of equating society with state institutions (e.g. police, courts, prisons). If this is, in fact, the case then how is the phenomenon of anarchist socialism even possible? How, for example, is what you see right now in Chiapas or Rojava even possible in your view of what socialism is? If it exists in the real world, it requires an explanation, after all.

Perhaps another source of confusion may be one's mental conflation of state and government. Anarchist socialists, such as yours truly for example, oppose the state but not government at a conceptual level. We are not, as a certain stigma has it, supporters of chaos. In point of fact, anarchist revolutions are usually a product of chaos unintentionally created by a repressive police state, often emerging in the context of a civil war being fought thereby, for instance. We are not agents of chaos. We're not actually advocating the kind of community you saw in Pirates of the Caribbean. :P Anarchism is entirely compatible with, for example, the local populace voluntarily gathering, crafting, and voting upon a general economic plan for production and distribution within said community, as well as the crafting of rules and community-based enforcement thereof. The enactment of legislation does not end with the abolition of the state, as far as I am concerned, and as far as nearly all anarchists are concerned. What ends is the separation of these processes from the population itself.

Personally, I regard myself specifically as a communalist. Communalists favor the reorganization of humanity into giant networks of autonomous communes. In connection to the question of government, this means that I advocate the introduction of direct or, if you will, participatory democracy; a type of political organization wherein people vote on public policies directly rather than through elected representatives and which is obviously only viable at the local level. I think it's hard to rationally argue that this kind of localism equates to the introduction of "bigger government" or that the introduction of participatory democracy and things like community policing and restorative justice in place of electoral or non-democracy and traditional policing, courts, and prisons is the same thing as implementing a police state. (Communalists are also very pragmatic and believe in the possibility of things like peaceful revolutions that can be achieved, at least in part, through electoral avenues, it may be worth adding, in contrast to some other socialist libertarians and anarchists.)

The introduction of participatory democracy might alternatively, in economic terms, be described as bringing the government fully under social management. If feudal governance might be defined as a system wherein the government is privately owned (e.g. by a particular family or religious institution, general, or political party), then democracy, to the extent that it exists, can be characterized as the creation of a public sector; as the socialization of government. Radical democracy, such as I advocate, then is the completion of this task. In other words, in my mind, to the extent that a "socialist" government fails the democracy test, it also fails the socialism test.

Yes, I believe that the local community should basically own everything and distribute human necessities according to need. I also believe that both the government and the economy should be managed in a radically democratic fashion. I don't see how that's repressive.

Good to see someone who knows about something before commenting. You are a rarity on these forums (and the internet in general).



LurkerJ said:
KrspaceT said:

Brexit, do you not remember that? The country already has a conservative count that can lead to decisions just as  bad, if not more so, than electing Trump. 

And Europe has tougher Hate Speech Laws because, unlike America, Free Speech isn't allowed to run wild. There is an argument to the problems of arresting people for, say, denying the Holocaust or Hieling Hitler, but here's a counter argument: Free Speech in America runs wild enough it is borderline cancerous at times.

Hate speech is subjective. 

A lot of the Quran and Hadith verses are the embodiment of hate speech, why aren't they banned in the Britain? If hate speech isn't allowed, all London Islamic schools should be shut down. 

Hate speech is not subjective. UK has the PREVENT system to deal with radical extremism. Why should all London Islamic Schools be shut down? Are all religions a form of hate speech, or is it Islam in particular?



VGPolyglot said:
contestgamer said:

No, it's socialist. Human decency is me CHOOSING to give my money to help those in need. I wouldn't do that because I dont believe in it, so instead the government takes my money in the form of taxes and gives it away. When the collective defines what your so called "human decency" means on behalf of everyone and then enforces it through redistribution of tax money it's socialism.

Socialism doesn't mean "more taxes & bigger government".

Socialism means stagnant growth, diminished liberties and death. 



Helloplite said:
LurkerJ said:

Hate speech is subjective. 

A lot of the Quran and Hadith verses are the embodiment of hate speech, why aren't they banned in the Britain? If hate speech isn't allowed, all London Islamic schools should be shut down. 

Hate speech is not subjective. UK has the PREVENT system to deal with radical extremism. Why should all London Islamic Schools be shut down? Are all religions a form of hate speech, or is it Islam in particular?

The UK system is a joke. It's done nothing but offer a safe haven to an extreme culture who would rather see everyone dead than become apart of that society.



Helloplite said:
LurkerJ said:

Hate speech is subjective. 

A lot of the Quran and Hadith verses are the embodiment of hate speech, why aren't they banned in the Britain? If hate speech isn't allowed, all London Islamic schools should be shut down. 

Hate speech is not subjective. UK has the PREVENT system to deal with radical extremism. Why should all London Islamic Schools be shut down? Are all religions a form of hate speech, or is it Islam in particular?

Hate speech is subjective. For example, Islam is hate speech, that's an objective reality to me, yet no one is banning Islamic teachings in the UK, Why? Because the ones who disagree subjectively think otherwise. 

To answer your question, most religions spread hate speech one way or another, but as I explained earlier, only Islam is a growing problem that's facing Europe as a whole. Saying Jesus is gay would not get you banned from entering the UK, but saying Allah is gay does.