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Forums - Politics Discussion - NATO, US, Canada, Australia & 25 European countries expel a total of 152 Russian envoys over Russian former spy poisoning

SpokenTruth said:

But you know what, I'll drop a few for you anyway and then I'm done.

1. Sergei Skripal is a former Russian spy that defected.
2. In 2010, Putin threatened to kill traitors like Skripal.
3. Former Russian spy that defected, Boris Karpichkov, was threatened, along others including Skripal 3 weeks prior to poisoning.
4. Russian developed and stockpiled nerve agent.
5. Specific agent used to kill by Russian security services on several occasions.
6. Nerve agent traced to being stowed in daughter's suit case while she was still in Moscow.

Ahem - you don't seriously consider that an answer to my question, right? You're just desperately trying to distract from the fact that you cannot give an answer to my actual question, correct?

"Please, name me just one plausible explanation why russia, out of all the billions of reliable ways they could have killed the guy, they decided to try to kill him in the one way that instantly points towards them, and which is obviously extremely unreliable (since none of the victims died so far)."



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SpokenTruth said:
ArnoldRimmer said:

True. But then again, that was a clear retaliation response to an action by Obama:

Shortly before leaving office, Obama ordered to increase tensions with Russia by expelling russian diplomats, effectively reducing the number of russian diplomats in the US to 455.

So the Kremlin did a tit-for-tat response and ordered that the number of US diplomats in Russia must also be reduced to the very same number, 455.

Did you read the rest of that response to Rab?  No, of course you didn't.  Or you would have seen where I said this back and forth diplomatic expulsions have been going on for a long time.   Do the Google search I stated and you'll see dozens of instances where both countries (or Russia plus another country) booted diplomats.  Both sides do this. 

True of course. But what's your point exactly?

While I do think that expelling diplomats is a bad idea, no matter who is doing it, I need to at least give the russians credit that in the case that you mentioned, the russian expelling of US diplomats was "only" an obvious retaliation response to war-monger Obama expelling russian diplomats: "You are enforcing that the number of russian diplomats is being reduced to 455? Okay, then we will enforce that the number of US diplomats is also being reduced to 455." A somewhat understandable and just response.



By the way, there's further evidence for my assumption that the main reason why those countries are expelling russian diplomats is because they feel pressured to, not because they really really want to get rid of russian diplomats:

As mentioned in the OP, Germany is expelling four russian diplomats.

But what's not so well-known is that the german government has already ruled that russia may simply send four others in exchange. A quite clever move: By joining in on the "expelling russian diplomats"-trend, they are not upsetting Washington; the NATO war-mongers can proudly claim that yet another country has decided to expell russian diplomats.
But at the very same time, by allowing that these diplomats will simply be exchanged with four others, they ensure that this is mainly just a PR stunt, and are reducing the unnecessary additional tension with russia to a minimum.



ArnoldRimmer said:
SpokenTruth said:

But you know what, I'll drop a few for you anyway and then I'm done.

1. Sergei Skripal is a former Russian spy that defected.
2. In 2010, Putin threatened to kill traitors like Skripal.
3. Former Russian spy that defected, Boris Karpichkov, was threatened, along others including Skripal 3 weeks prior to poisoning.
4. Russian developed and stockpiled nerve agent.
5. Specific agent used to kill by Russian security services on several occasions.
6. Nerve agent traced to being stowed in daughter's suit case while she was still in Moscow.

Ahem - you don't seriously consider that an answer to my question, right? You're just desperately trying to distract from the fact that you cannot give an answer to my actual question, correct?

"Please, name me just one plausible explanation why russia, out of all the billions of reliable ways they could have killed the guy, they decided to try to kill him in the one way that instantly points towards them, and which is obviously extremely unreliable (since none of the victims died so far)."

You aren't very bright if you really can't answer that yourself. Well, here is it: Russia wanted to "get caught", because it doesn't want its own agents/military personel to defect. This sends a strong message to other agents who are possibly planning to defect: there is no line that Russia won't hesitate to cross to kill them. This should be very obvious, so I don't know why you haven't figured it out.

And this nerve gas that was used is probably quite hard to handle/use, so maybe that is the reason why they haven't died yet. But from what I have read about this gas, they probably are as good as dead. Maybe it was even planned that way.



"The rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

- Single-player Game

After what appears to be several assassinations by Russians in other countries I think that its obvious for other countries to take a stand against Russians period. No one wants this going on on their soil.



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Guys, remember, don't feed the trolls.



ArnoldRimmer said:
Rab said:

No I didn't read the other posts, it's good your open to seeing the shite from all countries

there is definitely camps developing here, and the Russians see it, don't expect anything to get better, this is just stirring up shit and wont be good for anyone, prove it first, give the Russians a right of reply, the way these countries are doing it now is like a gang of school yard thugs accusing a kid with no evidence of some infraction 

Again this will only harden Russia, the hawks in each of the countries love it, particularly in Russia and the US 

Exactly. I do not understand how anyone can seriously welcome these actions, how anyone can believe that it's something positive to expell diplomats.

The so-called "doomsday clock" is already at two minutes to midnight (=doomsday), it has never even been closer than that - even during the Cuba crisis it was several minutes further from midnight.

And yet, despite obvious doubts people should have about russia being behind this, people are seriously welcoming steps that are sure to only significantly increase the tensions between Russia and the US and push us all closer to WW3, without even demanding any actual proof whatsoever?

I don't get it. Are these people so damn sure they won't seriously be affected by WW3? Right at a time when for example the US wants to build new nuclear weapons, Europe wants to massively increase its military budget etc.?

See, I don't see how Russia would benefit from nuclear war.  There is a reason why there is no such thing as a nuclear war... because that is an absolute.  You don't come back from that and therefore, their is no benefit unless your desire is death and nothing else.  Our will to live is one of humanity's strongest features and a nuclear war flies in the face of that. 



Just want to point out to readers of this thread that when ArnoldRimmer frames the expelling of 755 Americans from the embassy in Russia as a tit-for-tat equivalent response because it brought the number of US personnel down to 455 which is the same as Russians in the USA, he is ignoring the fact that the USA only threw out 35 people ... versus 755. Not really equivalent. Also it was done as revenge for the sanctions and not the expulsion.

Why were the American embassy so much bigger in the first place? Don't ask me. I have little knowledge in this area—like Arnold.



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Hiku said:
vivster said:
I always found this practice to be odd. Diplomats' whole existence is to do diplomacy. But the first thing they do after an incident that would require diplomacy is expelling the diplomats?

It's not their first course of action. Russia were given 14 days to explain how a Russian military grade nerve agent ended up poisoning a former Russian spy in the UK. No explanation was given. (Although Russia asked if they could analyze the nerve agent, iirc)

Obviously you can't explain what you know nothing about. They're made guilty either way



Hiku said:
contestgamer said:

Obviously you can't explain what you know nothing about. They're made guilty either way

Like I just said to the person I responded to above, U.K. intelligence agencies concluded that it was "highly likely" that Russia was behind it.
Absent of concrete definitive evidence (in many cases where the culprits are outside of your jurisdiction, there will never be any such evidence to find), that may very well be the highest level of certainty in their grading system, as it sounds very similar to the highest grading the CIA, FBI and NSA use. Which was with "high confidence."

Only Russia can know for 100% certain whether they did it or not and they've clearly stated they didn't.