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Forums - Politics Discussion - What is "socialism"? - An attempt to clear up myths/misconceptions

gigaSheik said:
VGPolyglot said:

As opposed to the current economic system which requires a police force and military to sustain?

How many more kills do you need? Don't you think the pile of corpses is big enough for you to realize that it doesn't work? Or... perhaps... you just want to have some fun.

I'm going to ask you the same thing, how many much police and military intervention for you to realize that it is a violent system that is sustained through force and coercion?



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I find people who say capitalism is flawed should remember so is socialism.

Any system taken to the extreme is flawed and imo the best countries in the world are capitalistic and socialist-minded at the same time.



VGPolyglot said:
gigaSheik said:

How many more kills do you need? Don't you think the pile of corpses is big enough for you to realize that it doesn't work? Or... perhaps... you just want to have some fun.

I'm going to ask you the same thing, how many much police and military intervention for you to realize that it is a violent system that is sustained through force and coercion?

I don't waste my time listening to socialist blablabla. There's no point in debatinig with people like you. I just call you what you are and there's only 2 options: a complete idiot or a sadistic psychopath.

 

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Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 03 February 2018

gigaSheik said:
VGPolyglot said:

I'm going to ask you the same thing, how many much police and military intervention for you to realize that it is a violent system that is sustained through force and coercion?

I don't waste my time listening to socialist blablabla. There's no point in debatinig with people like you. I just call you what you are and there's only 2 options: a complete idiot or a sadistic psychopath.

OK, I won't waste my time with you either.



DonFerrari said:
Leadified said:

Capitalists were sure in a hurry to intervene anywhere where there was a hint of communism. Going as far as to ally with the fascists in Spain and Chile, sounds like they would do anything to stop the spread of red. If you do not fear the left then why do you keep trying to undermine it?

You mean governments that wanted to keep their power gone and intervened??? That doesn't really make capitalism to be at risk. I do not fear socialism, I do fear their tryouts that end up killing a lot of people in the process.

Leadified said:

1. You need to support your counter argument with evidence not mere principles. This site contains some handy graphs, don't think it has a wealth graph so I have provided one separately. 

2. According the 2014 Gini Index, Vietnam and Laos (both self proclaimed socialist states) are more equal than the US which has the same inequality level as China. In fact the worst performing countries are capitalist.

And since inequality is the biggest issue it certainly is better to live in Vietnam or Cuba than USA, and that is why we see daily migrants going from USA to both countries.

" That doesn't really make capitalism to be at risk." -> "You mean governments that wanted to keep their power gone and intervened???"
You just proved my point.

Revolution happens when society cannot take it anymore, violence becomes a viable solution. When you try to shove issues like inequality or exploitation under the rug like it's nothing, all it says to me is that capitalism can no longer solve these problems so their supporters choose to ignore them. 

Locknuts said:
Leadified said:

There are reasons to be concerned about inequality. IMF makes the case that inequality hurts economic growth and apparently inequality is also correlated with increasing health issues. Poverty could also be linked to inequality but I didn't really find a solid case for it. Typically inequality has been a bipartisan issue with each side arguing that if it's an issue best tackled by state intervention or the market. I find it an interesting development if people stop talking about inequality because to me this seems like society has run out of ideas to solve it.

I'm not sure why Vietnam (or Laos) would be representative of all socialism but alright let's take a look at Vietnam. Article on 'Nam by the World Bank. So what we see here is that poverty has actually decreased dramatically while Vietnam also has one of the highest GDP growths in the world, life expectancy is almost as high as the US. The nation master link you posted is interesting because Zambia is listed at #3 (and a country which suffers from extreme inequality) but Zambia has much worse poverty than Vietnam. (64% in extreme poverty in Zambia vs 3% for Vietnam)

Nah inequality isn't really a problem, so it doesn't really need to be talked about. All it does is stoke resentment and aid those who promote class warfare. As long as poverty is going down instead of up that's cool.

I'd say Zambia is a mistake on that list, but the rest seems pretty solid.

I disagree with your premise given the evidence I've provided so I don't think we can go further than this.



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RolStoppable said:
VGPolyglot said:

And I will continue to advocate for a system that is much better than the alternative, capitalism, which has ruined billions of lives.

Capitalism is the worst form of society, except for all the others.

I can't tell if you're joking or serious.



VGPolyglot said:
gigaSheik said:
The economic system you want kills people. That makes you, at the very least, a mass murderer supporter and I trully believe that, if you are given the chance. You will kill too.

As opposed to the current economic system which requires a police force and military to sustain?

All right, I'll bite.

You think that socialism will remove the need for police and military? How would that work, exactly? Under socialism, people will not commit crimes? Countries will no longer struggle against one another for all of the various reasons countries have, throughout all human history?



donathos said:
VGPolyglot said:

As opposed to the current economic system which requires a police force and military to sustain?

All right, I'll bite.

You think that socialism will remove the need for police and military? How would that work, exactly? Under socialism, people will not commit crimes? Countries will no longer struggle against one another for all of the various reasons countries have, throughout all human history?

The police and military are tools of class conflict, in order to keep the class differences. Of course there will still be problems in socialism, we're not looking for a perfect society, we're looking for a better society. Also, socialism is an internationalist movement.



RolStoppable said:
VGPolyglot said:

I can't tell if you're joking or serious.

I am serious with this modified Churchill quote. Capitalism, like democracy, may be condemned because it's imperfect, but people need to be conscious of the fact that everything else is imperfect too.

As an analogy, we could look at internet comment culture where a place like VGC would be capitalistic because it has a police force, a hierarchy and somewhat of a reward system for people who put in effort. VGC isn't perfect, but nothing is. The equivalent of socialism would be the Youtube comments section.

I didn't claim that socialism was perfect. And yeah, VGC is a good example of capitalism, ioi barely ever shows up here yet makes the ad money while the moderators who put a ton of effort into the site don't make a penny.



VGPolyglot said:
donathos said:

All right, I'll bite.

You think that socialism will remove the need for police and military? How would that work, exactly? Under socialism, people will not commit crimes? Countries will no longer struggle against one another for all of the various reasons countries have, throughout all human history?

The police and military are tools of class conflict, in order to keep the class differences. Of course there will still be problems in socialism, we're not looking for a perfect society, we're looking for a better society. Also, socialism is an internationalist movement.

With respect, you're slinging dogma at me -- not discussing anything real. "Tools of class conflict"? "An internationalist movement"? The actual history of such socialist countries which have existed tells me that there will still be class distinctions within them, and divisions between socialist governments. Every socialist government has had a police force, and made terrible use of them besides. There have been wars between socialist governments, and of course there remains the potential for conflict between socialist governments and non-socialist governments. (Because you describe something as "international" does not mean that the world will conform to your theory; it's a good bet that not everyone on the planet will subscribe to your ideology.)

Look at the history of socialist countries and tell me whether or not they are "better societies." I'd say that the evidence points in the other direction: that socialism destroys economy, liberty and life. And, in general, I'd advise that you read the applicable histories, because you currently speak like someone who is steeped in propaganda but without any understanding of how any of this has worked in practice.