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Forums - Politics - What is "socialism"? - An attempt to clear up myths/misconceptions

o_O.Q said:
Leadified said:

1. You need to support your counter argument with evidence not mere principles. This site contains some handy graphs, don't think it has a wealth graph so I have provided one separately. 

2. According the 2014 Gini Index, Vietnam and Laos (both self proclaimed socialist states) are more equal than the US which has the same inequality level as China. In fact the worst performing countries are capitalist.

 

"Vietnam and Laos (both self proclaimed socialist states) are more equal than the US"

what about about their standard of living? that's the most important part

you can't seriously tell me you'd rather live in worse conditions as long as everyone around you also has to live in worse conditions?

 

inequality is not a problem, people who work hard and come up with innovative ideas should benefit disproportionately more than other people, what is really important is whether people aren't getting the basic needs met

That wasn't his argument but yes, I want to live in the jungles and follow in the footsteps of my hero, Ho Chi Minh. Who heroically defended the working proletariat against the American imperialists.  Cool strawmen get cool answers.

I agree, capitalism is the problem which is why we need to abolish it so our innovative ideas are no longer bound by capital.

Last edited by Leadified - on 02 February 2018

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Leadified said:
o_O.Q said:

 

"Vietnam and Laos (both self proclaimed socialist states) are more equal than the US"

what about about their standard of living? that's the most important part

you can't seriously tell me you'd rather live in worse conditions as long as everyone around you also has to live in worse conditions?

 

inequality is not a problem, people who work hard and come up with innovative ideas should benefit disproportionately more than other people, what is really important is whether people aren't getting the basic needs met

That wasn't his argument but yes, I want to live in the jungles and follow in the footsteps of my hero, Ho Chi Minh. Who heroically defended the working proletariat against the American imperialists.  Cool strawmen get cool answers.

I agree, capitalism is the problem which is why we need to abolish it so our innovative ideas are no longer bound by capital.

i understand that his stated argument was about how equal societies are, but i think what he was really talking about is the average standard of living

and obviously the us has a better standard of living than vietnam or laos

 

"I agree, capitalism is the problem which is why we need to abolish it so our innovative ideas are no longer bound by capital."

yeah better to put a system in place where you have less freedom to innovate to begin with

trading a system that provides a chance at success for a system that actively discourages success( since everyone must be equal of course ) doesn't seem that sensible to me

 

i mean i just have to marvel at someone sitting at a computer using the internet trying to argue that they are being oppressed by their society 

that's not to say that society is not oppressive but both its oppressive and protective/supportive



o_O.Q said:
Leadified said:

That wasn't his argument but yes, I want to live in the jungles and follow in the footsteps of my hero, Ho Chi Minh. Who heroically defended the working proletariat against the American imperialists.  Cool strawmen get cool answers.

I agree, capitalism is the problem which is why we need to abolish it so our innovative ideas are no longer bound by capital.

i understand that his stated argument was about how equal societies are, but i think what he was really talking about is the average standard of living

and obviously the us has a better standard of living than vietnam or laos

 

"I agree, capitalism is the problem which is why we need to abolish it so our innovative ideas are no longer bound by capital."

yeah better to put a system in place where you have less freedom to innovate to begin with

trading a system that provides a chance at success for a system that actively discourages success( since everyone must be equal of course ) doesn't seem that sensible to me

 

i mean i just have to marvel at someone sitting at a computer using the internet trying to argue that they are being oppressed by their society 

that's not to say that society is not oppressive but both its oppressive and protective/supportive

He didn't even mention himself in particular, and even if he was, I don't see how having internet and being oppressed are mutually exclusive.



VGPolyglot said:
o_O.Q said:

i understand that his stated argument was about how equal societies are, but i think what he was really talking about is the average standard of living

and obviously the us has a better standard of living than vietnam or laos

 

"I agree, capitalism is the problem which is why we need to abolish it so our innovative ideas are no longer bound by capital."

yeah better to put a system in place where you have less freedom to innovate to begin with

trading a system that provides a chance at success for a system that actively discourages success( since everyone must be equal of course ) doesn't seem that sensible to me

 

i mean i just have to marvel at someone sitting at a computer using the internet trying to argue that they are being oppressed by their society 

that's not to say that society is not oppressive but both its oppressive and protective/supportive

He didn't even mention himself in particular, and even if he was, I don't see how having internet and being oppressed are mutually exclusive.

forget that, let me ask you something, why do you use chun li as your avatar consistently?



o_O.Q said:
VGPolyglot said:

He didn't even mention himself in particular, and even if he was, I don't see how having internet and being oppressed are mutually exclusive.

forget that, let me ask you something, why do you use chun li as your avatar consistently?

I'm not going to reply to a question that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.



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VGPolyglot said:
o_O.Q said:

forget that, let me ask you something, why do you use chun li as your avatar consistently?

I'm not going to reply to a question that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

it actually has everything to do with the topic at hand

this is an extension of the point i have always made in relation to the topic



o_O.Q said:
VGPolyglot said:

I'm not going to reply to a question that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

it actually has everything to do with the topic at hand

OK, explain to me how it does then.



o_O.Q said:
Leadified said:

That wasn't his argument but yes, I want to live in the jungles and follow in the footsteps of my hero, Ho Chi Minh. Who heroically defended the working proletariat against the American imperialists.  Cool strawmen get cool answers.

I agree, capitalism is the problem which is why we need to abolish it so our innovative ideas are no longer bound by capital.

i understand that his stated argument was about how equal societies are, but i think what he was really talking about is the average standard of living

and obviously the us has a better standard of living than vietnam or laos

 

"I agree, capitalism is the problem which is why we need to abolish it so our innovative ideas are no longer bound by capital."

yeah better to put a system in place where you have less freedom to innovate to begin with

trading a system that provides a chance at success for a system that actively discourages success( since everyone must be equal of course ) doesn't seem that sensible to me

 

i mean i just have to marvel at someone sitting at a computer using the internet trying to argue that they are being oppressed by their society 

that's not to say that society is not oppressive but both its oppressive and protective/supportive

So you understand he was talking about inequality but yet you try to move the goalposts to your argument. Nice try.
Cool, marvel all you want.



VGPolyglot said:
o_O.Q said:

it actually has everything to do with the topic at hand

OK, explain to me how it does then.

you admire chun li because chun li possesses certain characteristics that are unique to her as a character

beyond that chun li with regards to her ethos is a character that is high up in hierarchies related to fighting, attractiveness etc etc etc

 

isn't it ironic then that you are advocating for a system that has the goal of reducing the unique qualities people have in order to bring about equality?

you might not see it that way, but if you think about it for a bit it should become apparent to you

if anything chun li and all characters like her are about inequality, they are "people" that are better than the average person and so they give people a mark to aim for

 

characters like chun li are popular because they inspire people to become greater then they are, they inspire people to try to climb hierarchies and develop themselves into something greater

the ideas i've seen you and the others push run counter to that

its essentially that since people becoming better and climbing hierarchies creates inequality, that we should therefore throw the whole idea out and just have everyone sit at square one

and its not just a bad idea but it runs counter to how people actually are innately



Leadified said:
Locknuts said:

Have you heard of the Pareto Principle? Peterson explains it better than I could, but essentially in all areas of human productivity the square root of the total number of people produce approximately 50% of whatever it is they are producing. It's true in all areas of human productivity. This is why I doubt your claim that a smaller group of people are getting more of the wealth. The percentage will most likely remain the same.

Also, remember that the 'top 1%' or whatever figure you want to throw out there is an ever changing group of people. There is serious income mobility in the USA. It's only in dictatorships (which are mostly Communist or Socialist at the moment) where the people at the very top are disgustingly wealthy and the people at the bottom are starving.

1. You need to support your counter argument with evidence not mere principles. This site contains some handy graphs, don't think it has a wealth graph so I have provided one separately. 

2. According the 2014 Gini Index, Vietnam and Laos (both self proclaimed socialist states) are more equal than the US which has the same inequality level as China. In fact the worst performing countries are capitalist.

1. Ok, I have read your data and some other stuff and I now agree that the rich appear to be getting richer in the USA. I don't think wealth inequality is necessarily a bad thing though. It depends on the reasons for it. Poverty is however a problem in the USA but it appears to be decreasing: https://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-current-poverty-rate-united-states -  please note - this data is from 2015.

2. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Cost-of-living/Average-monthly-disposable-salary/After-tax - Laos and Vietnam are abominably poor. Are you trying to make an argument against socialism? The 'worst performing' countries? In terms of equality? Who cares about equality if everyone's in poverty?