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Forums - Politics - What is "socialism"? - An attempt to clear up myths/misconceptions

DonFerrari on 30 January 2018
VGPolyglot said:
DonFerrari said:
Just to remember the dear folks that the natural side of human is accumulation.

And that people have different capacities to manage their properties.

My great grandfather moved to a remote place in Brazil where anyone could fence a place and call property. At 85 he divided equally his land to his 12 sons and daughters. It didn't took much time for my grandfather to buy out the land of 9 of his brothers and sisters.

They all could have had the same outcome since they came from the same place, but most were just interested in the minimum to live by. The ones that want more and go after it end up being rich.

I'm pretty certain that if we extinguished all forms of government and distributed equally all the money, property and etc among people it wouldn't take more than 3 generations to get a level of inequality similar to our.

Poor people are poor more because of their habits than anything else.

I'm going to need more than your anecdotal evidence, how am I even supposed to verify the validity of that story?

http://mundodasmontanhas.blogspot.com/2011/01/

My great grandparents entered guiness as the longest marriage in Brazil, and would be in the world if not for a japanese couple that 'married" at the age of 5.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
VGPolyglot on 30 January 2018
DonFerrari said:
VGPolyglot said:

I'm going to need more than your anecdotal evidence, how am I even supposed to verify the validity of that story?

http://mundodasmontanhas.blogspot.com/2011/01/

My great grandparents entered guiness as the longest marriage in Brazil, and would be in the world if not for a japanese couple that 'married" at the age of 5.

Where is the story of the division of the land?



DonFerrari on 30 January 2018
VGPolyglot said:
DonFerrari said:

http://mundodasmontanhas.blogspot.com/2011/01/

My great grandparents entered guiness as the longest marriage in Brazil, and would be in the world if not for a japanese couple that 'married" at the age of 5.

Where is the story of the division of the land?

Would take quite sometime to go to the small city my grandfather lives and get the official paperwork for inheritance of the land by my great uncles and aunties. And in the end you don't even read portuguese so it wouldn't mean anything.

Just yesterday you were discussing with me as like a group of people saving 10k USD to start a business is like unattainable.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

VGPolyglot on 30 January 2018
DonFerrari said:
VGPolyglot said:

Where is the story of the division of the land?

Would take quite sometime to go to the small city my grandfather lives and get the official paperwork for inheritance of the land by my great uncles and aunties. And in the end you don't even read portuguese so it wouldn't mean anything.

Just yesterday you were discussing with me as like a group of people saving 10k USD to start a business is like unattainable.

I've got numbers to back it up:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-in-their-savings-accounts.html

75% of Americans have less than $10,000 in their savings account. I also don't know how many of the ones that do could just afford to put in 10k to start a business.

 

Also, considering that Brazil's economy is much lower per-capita than the US, I have a feeling it's even less likely in Brazil:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Brazil/United-States/Economy



DonFerrari on 30 January 2018
VGPolyglot said:
DonFerrari said:

Would take quite sometime to go to the small city my grandfather lives and get the official paperwork for inheritance of the land by my great uncles and aunties. And in the end you don't even read portuguese so it wouldn't mean anything.

Just yesterday you were discussing with me as like a group of people saving 10k USD to start a business is like unattainable.

I've got numbers to back it up:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-in-their-savings-accounts.html

75% of Americans have less than $10,000 in their savings account. I also don't know how many of the ones that do could just afford to put in 10k to start a business.

 

Also, considering that Brazil's economy is much lower per-capita than the US, I have a feeling it's even less likely in Brazil:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Brazil/United-States/Economy

And do 75% of the americans not own a car that they could sell? That alone would make the 10k... and considering the average earning of the Americans is like 6x this per year, their lack of savings is much more on how they manage their money than the lack of making that money.

Also if you read again "group of people saving 10k" so it isn't a single person. And again look more and you'll find that a lot of these americans (and brazilian) started their business even though they don't have 10k in savings.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
VGPolyglot on 30 January 2018
DonFerrari said:
VGPolyglot said:

I've got numbers to back it up:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-in-their-savings-accounts.html

75% of Americans have less than $10,000 in their savings account. I also don't know how many of the ones that do could just afford to put in 10k to start a business.

 

Also, considering that Brazil's economy is much lower per-capita than the US, I have a feeling it's even less likely in Brazil:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Brazil/United-States/Economy

And do 75% of the americans not own a car that they could sell? That alone would make the 10k... and considering the average earning of the Americans is like 6x this per year, their lack of savings is much more on how they manage their money than the lack of making that money.

Also if you read again "group of people saving 10k" so it isn't a single person. And again look more and you'll find that a lot of these americans (and brazilian) started their business even though they don't have 10k in savings.

The average commute to work necessitates a vehicle:

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2014/us-commuting.aspx

So they can't just sell them.



Locknuts on 30 January 2018
sc94597 said:
Locknuts said:
The question remains: Why would you want to replace a system that has produced the highest standards of living and longest life expectancies for the most people in human history with something as radical as 'real socialism' and ultimately Communism?

The chances of a radical new system actually working as well as what we have now are so small it's completely irresponsible to even propose the idea (as anything more than just an idea) until what we have collapses irreparably.

Because we can always do better? Capitalism replaced feudalism which replaced slave societies which replaced tribal communities, etc. When the benefits of capitalism are so disproportionate why settle on it and say, "yep this is the best social system"? 

Why do you think the chances of a new radical system working as well as what we have now are so small? There was a time when capitalism was radical and the aristocrats were warning about the instability and "radicalism" of liberal democracy. 

What we have now will collapse, albeit not all at once. Just like feudal institutions didn't collapse all at once. But if people don't put pressure on the system, nothing will change. Just as if the civil rights movement didn't happen, nothing would've changed for black-Americans. Social change isn't automatic. It must be actively achieved. 

I can appreciate the conservative argument that this change should be well-thought out and not imposed on other people though, despite this. 

Small, incremental improvements are fine, of course. I'm of the opinion that what we have now is a fragile miracle. Changing things too radically will most likely mean more suffering.



DonFerrari on 30 January 2018
VGPolyglot said:
DonFerrari said:

And do 75% of the americans not own a car that they could sell? That alone would make the 10k... and considering the average earning of the Americans is like 6x this per year, their lack of savings is much more on how they manage their money than the lack of making that money.

Also if you read again "group of people saving 10k" so it isn't a single person. And again look more and you'll find that a lot of these americans (and brazilian) started their business even though they don't have 10k in savings.

The average commute to work necessitates a vehicle:

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2014/us-commuting.aspx

So they can't just sell them.

Necessitating a car doesn't mean a 15k USD car, there are plenty of 500 USD cars.

For every barrier you or socialism think and that the government feel they'll need to intervene, capitalism and entrepreneur find an alternative for the problem and solve it. The government just end up putting more barriers, and people saying others can't thrive without their help or intervention just do those people a disfavor.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Vincoletto on 30 January 2018
DonFerrari said:

I'm pretty certain that if we extinguished all forms of government and distributed equally all the money, property and etc among people it wouldn't take more than 3 generations to get a level of inequality similar to our.

My thoughts exactly. Steal all the money and property from the rich and give it to the poor and in a short time it will be all the same. Or worse.

I have a family story that somehow resembles your. My father was from a family of 12. All extremely poor. I was born when my father was 17 and my mother 21, living on rent in a crappy place. But they both were always very hard workers and smart and with vision, very different from the rest of their families. My father was the only one that decided to study. They all could have done the same. But decided stay home. Several times my father told them to go study, invest in the future. They didnt want to.

My father became very successful, it allowed me to study in a good school and became kind of successful for brazilian standards. Today we can say both he, my mother and I are part of the "elite", capitalists pigs, living out of other people sweat. We were"privileged" and my father helps a lot of people in the family who didnt have the same "luck" and "opportunities" as him. Yeah... pure luck...

Capitalism allows you to ascend and have a better life, have property and pass this to your sons and generate a circle of development. Even in a "shithole" country like Brazil.



VGPolyglot on 30 January 2018
DonFerrari said:
VGPolyglot said:

The average commute to work necessitates a vehicle:

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2014/us-commuting.aspx

So they can't just sell them.

Necessitating a car doesn't mean a 15k USD car, there are plenty of 500 USD cars.

For every barrier you or socialism think and that the government feel they'll need to intervene, capitalism and entrepreneur find an alternative for the problem and solve it. The government just end up putting more barriers, and people saying others can't thrive without their help or intervention just do those people a disfavor.

"The government" did you read my OP?