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Forums - Nintendo - Nintendo should teach their 3rd party supporters their file compression secrets.

Zekkyou on 02 November 2017
Normchacho said:
Zekkyou said:

Whose said it is?

I did and I stand by it. Specifically I was saying that texture quality is a a generation beyond what you see in modern Nintendo games. Because it will take until next generation until you see Nintendo matching what Crash looks like on PS4.

-snip-

Ah, okay that's quite different to what he seemed to be implying. I mostly agree then, though with the caveat that if Nintendo made a title with exactly the same design and technical focus as Crash i would expect that gap to shrink considerably. Crash is after all fairly tame as far as PS4 tech goes, and a docked Switch is closer to the PS4 than a generation jump.



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MajorMalfunction on 02 November 2017
DonFerrari said:
MajorMalfunction said:

Pop-in and otherwise non-smooth transitions are a problem of loading data, and selected draw distance, and are not totally related to base texture quality, if the base mipmap size is large enough. When a texture isn't fully loaded, because they no longer have to be, due to sparse virtual textures being a given this gen, the system uses a too small mipmap of the given texture, resulting in a blurry/out of focus appearance. Rage had this problem because there wasn't enough memory on the PS360 to accomodate large enough textures (2K by 2K for a 1080p screen, plus and 2-8 2K by 2K texture tiles for what you need to texture outside the viewing frustum). JPEG transcoding at runtime (JPEG to BCN) is also a thing developers do.

I'm not totally technical on that... but although tiling and temp resolution are fantastic to free up computational power, if you move unexpectdely then all hell break lose.

And I know it isn't related to texture quality or size, but how they decided to use it. Just posted off-topic because it remembered me on similarity on compressing/compromissing quality for size of processing.

Yeah, MegaTexture can be great or terrible depending on the developer. It makes the usual texturing tricks really cheap, if that's what the dev wants. If you're interested in the technical specifics, I could explain it to you as best I can. I'm kicking around the idea to do a video or something on the mathematical principles of computer graphics. It's really interesting stuff. We stand on the backs of giants like Newton, Leibniz, Gauss and Chinese mathematicians ca 10 BCE. What drove me to think about that is DocTre's 1440p is upscaled comments about 3 years ago. Back on topic, brute force compression is a no-go this gen because of the relatively weak CPUs found in all the major consoles (XB1, PS4, Switch). Respawn actually made Titanfall 1 on PC bigger than on XB1 by decompressing audio so the game would work on weak-sauce dual cores. If they ported to Switch, they may have to make a similar decision. Probably the first thing to go would be textures, because they chew up a significant amount of disk space.



Currently (Re-)Playing: Starcraft 2: Legacy of the Void Multiplayer, The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past

Currently Watching: The Shield, Stein's;Gate, Narcos

Normchacho on 02 November 2017
Zekkyou said:
Normchacho said:

I did and I stand by it. Specifically I was saying that texture quality is a a generation beyond what you see in modern Nintendo games. Because it will take until next generation until you see Nintendo matching what Crash looks like on PS4.

-snip-

Ah, okay that's quite different to what he seemed to be implying. I mostly agree then, though with the caveat that if Nintendo made a title with exactly the same design and technical focus as Crash i would expect that gap to shrink considerably. Crash is after all fairly tame as far as PS4 tech goes, and a docked Switch is closer to the PS4 than a generation jump.

Oh yeah, if Nintendo tried to make games like that then it wouldn't be such a large gap. They just don't aim to push their hardware like that. But if we're talking file size their intentions don't really matter.



Bet with Adamblaziken:

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d21lewis on 02 November 2017
Bandorr said:
d21lewis said:
This conversation has taken a heck of a turn but maybe, if we're doing comparisons, stick to the same gen and maybe there same console?

*Instantly contradicts self*
And why is Arkham Knight almost twice as big on PS4 as it is on Xbox One?

Basically the thread against one very ... eager fan. It is quite the odd one.

As for the Arkham knight thing.. I'm gonna google that now. I'm intrigued.

edit: I've done googling and I can't find what you mean. I can see about a 6 gig difference. 44 to 50.  That said here is an interesting chart.

https://www.finder.com/ps4-vs-xbo-top-20-disparities-install-sizes

Game NamePublisherBigger OnVariance in Size (GB)Buy now
Warframe Indie Xbox One 19.63 N/A

For example.

I have all of the dlc for both (sales!) On Xbox One it's like 60 something GB and on PS4 it's like 98. I'll give you specifics and maybe even a screenshot tomorrow.



Zekkyou on 02 November 2017
MajorMalfunction said:
DonFerrari said:

I'm not totally technical on that... but although tiling and temp resolution are fantastic to free up computational power, if you move unexpectdely then all hell break lose.

And I know it isn't related to texture quality or size, but how they decided to use it. Just posted off-topic because it remembered me on similarity on compressing/compromissing quality for size of processing.

Yeah, MegaTexture can be great or terrible depending on the developer. It makes the usual texturing tricks really cheap, if that's what the dev wants. If you're interested in the technical specifics, I could explain it to you as best I can. I'm kicking around the idea to do a video or something on the mathematical principles of computer graphics. It's really interesting stuff. We stand on the backs of giants like Newton, Leibniz, Gauss and Chinese mathematicians ca 10 BCE. What drove me to think about that is DocTre's 1440p is upscaled comments about 3 years ago. Back on topic, brute force compression is a no-go this gen because of the relatively weak CPUs found in all the major consoles (XB1, PS4, Switch). Respawn actually made Titanfall 1 on PC bigger than on XB1 by decompressing audio so the game would work on weak-sauce dual cores. If they ported to Switch, they may have to make a similar decision. Probably the first thing to go would be textures, because they chew up a significant amount of disk space.

You totally should! Would make for a great watch.



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d21lewis on 02 November 2017
Bandorr said:
d21lewis said:

I have all of the dlc for both (sales!) On Xbox One it's like 60 something GB and on PS4 it's like 98. I'll give you specifics and maybe even a screenshot tomorrow.

Interesting.  So that puts the count around 48 for the PS4, and 16 for the xbox one.  If the base game has a 6 gig difference. Perhaps each DLC added something like a big of difference?

Possible. I know on Xbox we can see the size of the game and doc separately. I'm not sure about PS4 but we probably can. And that base game data may not be accurate anymore, either. I've had games grow immensely due to updates. I remember being able to play Sunset Overdrive in about 15 minutes on launch day. Now, it takes hours to install!

 

Anyway, I usually try to back up what I say with facts rather than fallible memory. I gotta work tomorrow but when I get home, I'll verify.



Cloudman on 02 November 2017

I was thinking something similar actually, haha. Seeing how likely most western AAA games are gonna need parts of their games to be downloaded, they really need some tricks to reduce those sizes, so Switch owners can actually own the full game when they buy them. Also, games are just getting too ridiculously big these days, and its moments like the Switch versions of these games that maybe they should try to cut down on those huge sizes....



 

              

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Normchacho on 02 November 2017
Cloudman said:
I was thinking something similar actually, haha. Seeing how likely most western AAA games are gonna need parts of their games to be downloaded, they really need some tricks to reduce those sizes, so Switch owners can actually own the full game when they buy them. Also, games are just getting too ridiculously big these days, and its moments like the Switch versions of these games that maybe they should try to cut down on those huge sizes....

You couldn't have modern AAA games without those file sizes. There's work that can be done to make games a little bit smaller, which most major studios already do, but AAA games can only get bigger as time goes on. The answer is more/faster storage, not compromised games.



Bet with Adamblaziken:

I bet that on launch the Nintendo Switch will have no built in in-game voice chat. He bets that it will. The winner gets six months of avatar control over the other user.

Cloudman on 02 November 2017
Normchacho said:
Cloudman said:
I was thinking something similar actually, haha. Seeing how likely most western AAA games are gonna need parts of their games to be downloaded, they really need some tricks to reduce those sizes, so Switch owners can actually own the full game when they buy them. Also, games are just getting too ridiculously big these days, and its moments like the Switch versions of these games that maybe they should try to cut down on those huge sizes....

You couldn't have modern AAA games without those file sizes. There's work that can be done to make games a little bit smaller, which most major studios already do, but AAA games can only get bigger as time goes on. The answer is more/faster storage, not compromised games.

I do find it kinda worrisome that they'll only get bigger, when they're already quite big as they are.



 

              

Dance my pretties!

The Official Art Thread      -      The Official Manga Thread      -      The Official Starbound Thread

Normchacho on 02 November 2017
Cloudman said:
Normchacho said:

You couldn't have modern AAA games without those file sizes. There's work that can be done to make games a little bit smaller, which most major studios already do, but AAA games can only get bigger as time goes on. The answer is more/faster storage, not compromised games.

I do find it kinda worrisome that they'll only get bigger, when they're already quite big as they are.

It's just the natural advancement of tech over time. It wasn't really all that long ago that most people didn't even think of storage in terms of terabytes. It also wasn't that long ago that we thought of internet speeds in kps.



Bet with Adamblaziken:

I bet that on launch the Nintendo Switch will have no built in in-game voice chat. He bets that it will. The winner gets six months of avatar control over the other user.