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Forums - Politics - What is a political issue that you want to understand the opposite viewpoint more?

Zkuq said:
palou said:

Think train dillemma. 

 

On a more political note: Suppose someone is dying of a fairly preventable disease somewhere near by, helping them would make you lose around 500$ (due to lost time), you decide that it's not worth it. That, to many, is not an action, and while assholish - in the right of the person. On the contrary, suppose you kill the for a prime of 500$. That, to many, is seen as an action, and should definitely send you to jail.

Looking at the 2 situations, there seems to be an equivalent choice, in terms of a decision tree based on outcome. They both chose a situation in which they came out with 500$ more, at the cost of a life.

The train dilemma forces it to be a conscious choice. Most of the time, inaction isn't a conscious choice. Instead, it's something that pretty much happens because of the way a person thinks. Choices happen all the time in life, but we don't really think about most of them. There are definitely cases where action and inaction are quite similar, but in the general case, I don't think that's the case.

Ah yes, sorry, I was thinking, more specifically, of conscious inaction - which I see simply as 1 action among many others. There are a lot of people that choose not to touch the lever in the standard train dilemma - that's something I have difficulty finding a logical explanation for.

 

However, as said (in the second example), these conscious decisions *not* to act at detriment of another person happen all the time, in society, and are generally accepted as lesser than what people would describe as an action to detriment of a person.

 

Of course, I distinguish between what we know and do not know. That's why I was talking about probability space.



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This isn't the biggest question I have, but it might be the issue that I have the least understanding of how someone could possibly have the opposite view on:

Why are you opposed to the estate tax? (AKA "death tax")

The government is literally waiting your entire life, waiting until after you are DEAD, before taking your money. If taxes are to be collected at all, how is this not the absolutely best possible tax that hurts you the least amount possible? How can you be opposed to the estate tax without opposing the entire concept of taxation?

I would also accept answers from people who agree with me but understand the opposing viewpoint better than I do.



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JWeinCom said:
Arminillo said:

I'm not sure if you know this, but Abraham is a pretty important dude, he ended up being key to three of the major religions of the world (Judaism: A New Hope, Christianity: Satan Strikes Back, and Islam: Return of the Prophet), I think the fact that Abraham was willing to do something like that shows that he was in fact THE guy you'd want to have being father of nations. Also, God seems to be a big parable guy. In the Old Testament, he pulled tons of stuff like that, symbolizing something or another. Then he sent Jesus who just told parables rather than act them out.

Not sure why that kind of blind obedience would be considered a good thing.

But beyond that on a purely practical level, why would god need to do any such test?  Assuming god is omniscient, then he already knew how devoted Abraham is.  He knew that Abraham would be willing to sacrifice Isaac before he did anything.  So, he was just kind of fucking with him for no reason.

Yeah well that story ended up becoming one of they key parts of the most successful religion of the world, so I think it was effective in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps the test wasnt for God...or for anyone involved in the story for that matter.



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Arminillo said:
JWeinCom said:

Not sure why that kind of blind obedience would be considered a good thing.

But beyond that on a purely practical level, why would god need to do any such test?  Assuming god is omniscient, then he already knew how devoted Abraham is.  He knew that Abraham would be willing to sacrifice Isaac before he did anything.  So, he was just kind of fucking with him for no reason.

Yeah well that story ended up becoming one of they key parts of the most successful religion of the world, so I think it was effective in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps the test wasnt for God...or for anyone involved in the story for that matter.

So, psychological torture for the sake of publicity?  Purely unnecessary publicity, since an omnipotent god would by definition be able to spread his religion in any number of other ways.  Dick move if you ask me.



JWeinCom said:
Arminillo said:

Yeah well that story ended up becoming one of they key parts of the most successful religion of the world, so I think it was effective in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps the test wasnt for God...or for anyone involved in the story for that matter.

So, psychological torture for the sake of publicity?  Purely unnecessary publicity, since an omnipotent god would by definition be able to spread his religion in any number of other ways.  Dick move if you ask me.

Are you suggesting he use his omnipotent power to force people to accept his religion? Im just trying to point out that the Bible is the most widely circulated text in the history of the world, so perhaps if the christian god is real, he mustve done a pretty good job with his instruction manual. Im not really trying to argue the merits of the story or Isaac, more the results.



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Arminillo said:
JWeinCom said:

So, psychological torture for the sake of publicity?  Purely unnecessary publicity, since an omnipotent god would by definition be able to spread his religion in any number of other ways.  Dick move if you ask me.

Are you suggesting he use his omnipotent power to force people to accept his religion? Im just trying to point out that the Bible is the most widely circulated text in the history of the world, so perhaps if the christian god is real, he mustve done a pretty good job with his instruction manual. Im not really trying to argue the merits of the story or Isaac, more the results.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims all get their religion from the same God as is in that story.  So no, I think he could have done a much better job of version control of his instruction manual. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

palou said:
Zkuq said:

The train dilemma forces it to be a conscious choice. Most of the time, inaction isn't a conscious choice. Instead, it's something that pretty much happens because of the way a person thinks. Choices happen all the time in life, but we don't really think about most of them. There are definitely cases where action and inaction are quite similar, but in the general case, I don't think that's the case.

Ah yes, sorry, I was thinking, more specifically, of conscious inaction - which I see simply as 1 action among many others. There are a lot of people that choose not to touch the lever in the standard train dilemma - that's something I have difficulty finding a logical explanation for.

 

However, as said (in the second example), these conscious decisions *not* to act at detriment of another person happen all the time, in society, and are generally accepted as lesser than what people would describe as an action to detriment of a person.

 

Of course, I distinguish between what we know and do not know. That's why I was talking about probability space.

This clears up the situation quite well, I'd say.



Arminillo said:
JWeinCom said:

So, psychological torture for the sake of publicity?  Purely unnecessary publicity, since an omnipotent god would by definition be able to spread his religion in any number of other ways.  Dick move if you ask me.

Are you suggesting he use his omnipotent power to force people to accept his religion? Im just trying to point out that the Bible is the most widely circulated text in the history of the world, so perhaps if the christian god is real, he mustve done a pretty good job with his instruction manual. Im not really trying to argue the merits of the story or Isaac, more the results.

No, I'm suggesting that being omnipotent would mean he has basically limitless options on how to spread the word of his existence/power/making people fear him.  Subjecting a senior citizen to an incredibly cruel test with no witnesses that served no purpose as he already knew the result.  Also, telling people they should be willing to kill innocent people for him probably also not a great moral since there are some people who heard the story and still take this awfully literally.

Of course, whether or not the story got around isn't particularly relevant to whether it is either true or good.  Plenty of untrue or bad things wind up becoming pretty popular.  



JWeinCom said:
Arminillo said:

Are you suggesting he use his omnipotent power to force people to accept his religion? Im just trying to point out that the Bible is the most widely circulated text in the history of the world, so perhaps if the christian god is real, he mustve done a pretty good job with his instruction manual. Im not really trying to argue the merits of the story or Isaac, more the results.

No, I'm suggesting that being omnipotent would mean he has basically limitless options on how to spread the word of his existence/power/making people fear him.  Subjecting a senior citizen to an incredibly cruel test with no witnesses that served no purpose as he already knew the result.  Also, telling people they should be willing to kill innocent people for him probably also not a great moral since there are some people who heard the story and still take this awfully literally.

Of course, whether or not the story got around isn't particularly relevant to whether it is either true or good.  Plenty of untrue or bad things wind up becoming pretty popular.  

True



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Final-Fan said:
Arminillo said:

Are you suggesting he use his omnipotent power to force people to accept his religion? Im just trying to point out that the Bible is the most widely circulated text in the history of the world, so perhaps if the christian god is real, he mustve done a pretty good job with his instruction manual. Im not really trying to argue the merits of the story or Isaac, more the results.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims all get their religion from the same God as is in that story.  So no, I think he could have done a much better job of version control of his instruction manual. 

@Final-Fan Yeah I touched on that earlier, please keep up with the convo on that. And you are right about the splintering of beliefs after Abraham



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