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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Metroid: Samus Returns is FANTASTIC so What's Next for 2D Metroid?

 

What should Metroid 5 be?

2D 38 26.95%
 
2.5D 40 28.37%
 
3D 25 17.73%
 
4D 38 26.95%
 
Total:141
mZuzek said:
spemanig said:

These kinds of evolutions and devolutions aren't exclusive to platforming, those were just examples i used, but my (biggest) issue with SR is that it is almost exclusively devolutions. Really bad ones that effect literally every facet of the game.

...such as?

I don't see any devolution besides the crappy walljumping and easy infinite bomb jumping. Free aim is on its own a huge evolution that greatly enhances both the combat and the exploration, it alone would be a huge step up for the series, but there's also the melee counter (which I agree could be balanced better in the future, but it is a great new idea) and Aeion abilities that are actually not "easy mode" at all (well except the Scan Pulse, that one's lame).

Also, Samus Returns is a remake. Expecting it to bring loads of evolution to the series is setting yourself up for disappointment, it makes no sense. I honestly don't get this notion that nothing can be great if it's not innovating on every aspect of itself, but trying to apply that mentality for remakes is particularly nonsensical.

...and again, free aim. That is a real evolution, bigger than anything Fusion ever had really.

Free aim is actually one of the devolutions. It's worse than what came before. Most obvious is that you can't move while free aiming, meaning you're vulnerable to any melee enemy attack whenever you do it, which in this this game is literally every enemy. Free aiming replaces the ability to point up or down while moving or remaining stationary. Aiming in such a way is now locked to the direction you run, which is extremely unweildly.

The free aim issue is actually made worse tho by its association with the enemy design. In order to make the counter useful, nearly every enemy has a charge attack, and will attack Samus on sight. Since you can't move while free aiming to get out of the way, and since regular aiming sucks now, and since countering will one-hit-kill every enemy that isnt a boss when executed correctly, there is no reason to even use the free aiming in these situations.

Free aiming is therefor only useful when the player is far enough that the enemy cant spot them. So just for pot shots. Except because of the way levels are designed, many times Samus has to get close because, until she gets the plasma beam, she has to make sure there is a clear shot between her and the enemy while still being far enough away that she doesnt trigger a melee attack. Since this is a Metroid game, irregular level design is common place, meaning theres often a wall or something in the way until she gets a plasma beam. Once she has a plasma beam though, the benefits of fine aim in situations where Samus is in no danger because she is both far way and obstructed by the level design are nill.

But then that's what the counter is for, right? Sure, only countering has also had a detrimental effect on the game. Now enemies feel game-y instead of like wildlife solely to make the counter useful. Even from a purely gameplay perspective tho, having every enemy charge at you makes enemies feel like annoying pests. Like youre constantly swatting away mosquitoes. All for what amounts to one-hit-kill QTEs. A QTE for nearly every enemy in the game as their first attack upon seeing the player. Every enemy reacts the exact same way, and Samus must react in the exact same way everytime in order to dispatch them in the most effecient way possible without even the option to ignore it because the other way is that inferior to just walking up and countering, to the point where i think it is nearly impossible to beat the game without using it constantly because you'd lose too much health to get through the game. (I'm sure you actually could, but it would be a slow and miserable time)

There is no way to balance the melee counter, either the entire game has to be restructured to keep it useful to the detriment of literally everything else ala SR, or not in which case the melee counter would be functionally useless.

I also want to address the "you just stand there and wait to counter" criticism. While i essentially agree with it, the issue is a little more complicated because you can technically just shoot while you wait. Enemies in this game are bullet sponges though until late game where only a few are. So technically you don't have to wait, right? Not so. For many enemies, they absorb so much damage that you cant kill them in the space between two melee counters. Since melee counters are one hit kills (are there enemies where they arent?) the damage you did in between literally doesn't matter. You're essentially BSing while you wait.

---

I'm not going to get into everything i dont like about this game as again i'd rather write about it in a more formal capacity, but hopefully this proves that my perspective is more than just "hurr durr not my metroid." I don't like Aeion either, but i dont really care about how easy it makes the game. Well, i mean i do, but you really don't need to use it, although its really easy to hit the button by accident. Still, options like these shouldn't exist in games like this, as their utility are always far superior to anything else in the game. But at least here, the game actually functions in an enjoyable capacity without using the worst ones. I'll say that I hate the Scan Pulse, dislike the sheild, and am so-so on the slomo (still kinda dislike tho) and machine gun whatever. I don't like how the machine gun opens some doors, but that a problem with level design, not the ability itself.

I also want to clarify that I wasn't looking to SR to evolve the franchise at all. When i mentioned evolution, i was talking about an ideal. In the ideal situation, every new game, remake or otherwise, would be a linear evolution of what came before. I'd be fine with a parellel tho, something i literally mentioned six words later from what youre responding to. A parellel meaning that the game remains consistent relatively speaking with the best in the series. Zero Mission is the perfect example of this. Super is better, but ZM is for all intents and purposes an acceptable lateral/parellel move. Again, from what I've seen, AM2R seems to be the same. SR didn't need to reinvent the wheel, but as it is now it only managed to flatten it.



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Snoorlax said:

spemanig said:
I disagree completely.

You don't like Samus Returns?

 

That's alright we all have different tastes.


Hahahaha sorry just had to react



Free aim is a devolution? 



I mean its a matter of tastes of course but I think its such an obvious improvement, I can't imagine a new 2D Metroid without free aim, it would feel like going backwards, in fact one of the few bad things that can be said about a masterpiece like Super Metroid is how unconfortable the aiming was in some situations.



miqdadi said:
Right now I am happy I got this one, and I don't want to spoil the fun but the game will not sell as much as Nintendo hopes so they will focus on prime 4, after that no guarantee for another 2D metroid

Yeah. It should have been saved for a console launch. As good as it is, it's going to get lost in the shuffle of other big games and the Switch. Plus I think the price is a little much. You can get more "cutting edge" games for much more powerful hardware with $40. I love it so far but this game is kinda set up for failure.



Goodnightmoon said:

Free aim is a devolution? 



I mean its a matter of tastes but i think its such an obvious improvement, I can't imagine a new 2D Metroid without it, it would feel like going backwards, in fact one of the few bad things that can be said about a masterpiece like Super Metroid is how unconfortable the aiming was in some situations.

I think I backed up my claims with pretty iron-clad arguments in a way that you have yet to.



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Snoorlax said:

MTZehvor said:

The issue is, with a storyline like this, there's going to be the need for a lot of passive storytelling to explain how we got here 

I don't think it needs much explaining, it should be made clear that Samus has become an enemy of the Federation and the hunter has become the hunted later throughout the game we get "reminded" of why Samus decided to go against them and their it follows with history of the Chozo, the Metroid etc. That is more than enough to keep the game interesting as long as the gameplay is tight.

While scanning was fun in Prime not everybody is interested in scanning and reading everything they find. Besides by implementing this way of storytelling the story will automatically be dumbed down because it should not hinder the experience. That's why i feel that it should be explained with cutscenes, text or voice acting but it should be skippable and not too heavy for those who don't care and just want to enjoy the game.

Going into moderately heavy spoiler territory for the unlockable memories in Samus Returns, so avoid if you haven't finished the game.

I'm working off the assumption here that the story will have something to do with the rebel Chozo faction depicted at on the "2D/10" panel. In other words, if Nintendo wants to make a story revolving around this faction, I think a Prime style game would be the best choice. The biggest reason why is that this is a narrative that will inevitably involve a lot of backstory. Samus having a questionable relationship with the Federation is easy enough to explain in an opening Super Metroid-esque monologue. But if the game wants to tackle this group of Chozo, there's going to be a lot of backstory that the player is going to have to be supplied with. Who are these rebels? What caused them to split from the mainline, peaceful Chozo in the first place? Who is the leader that executed the SR-388 elders? What caused them to suddenly disappeared from the galaxy? What exactly do they think they can accomplish with their violent methods that the other Chozo were unable to accomplish with peace? Do they know what happened to the rest of the Chozo, and if so, what? This is the type of story that a Prime style game is better prepared to address than a 2D game; the heavy emphasis on discovering what has happened up to this point and learning about what a seemingly lost civilization did are hallmarks of the Prime series. I'll grant that not everyone enjoys scanning that much, but that's a non-unique issue; plenty of people didn't like Fusion's and Other M's stories being delivered heavily by dialogue and cutscenes as that breaks the sense of isolation (not to mention that Nintendo doesn't exactly have a great history of delivering well executed story heavy cutscenes in Metroid). Inevitably, someone's not going to be happy with the method of story delivery. But that's how it goes with video games; you're never going to be able to please everyone, and enough people seem to enjoy the Prime games that if we're worried about how much people like it, a system based off Prime seems to be the best bet.

There's a couple arguments that seemed kind of contradictory. Firstly, sure, you can make every cutscene skippable, but if you're trying to implement a story that's basically optional to players having a good time with the game, scanning seems like the surefire way to go. Prime scanning set the benchmark for stories that are entirely optional; you don't have to scan any of the lore in Prime if you don't want to and you can still enjoy the game while having a general idea of what's going on. If the idea is to create a story that people don't need to be informed about to enjoy the experience, scanning seems like the obvious choice.

Secondly, I'm not quite sure I understand the comments about "dumbing down/hindering" the experience. I'm assuming the argument is that since scanning isn't something all people enjoy, that the enjoyability factor will be lessened for people that don't want to scan? If that's the case, then they can just opt to not scan and proceed as before, same as they could with skipping cutscenes. 



d21lewis said:
miqdadi said:
Right now I am happy I got this one, and I don't want to spoil the fun but the game will not sell as much as Nintendo hopes so they will focus on prime 4, after that no guarantee for another 2D metroid

Yeah. It should have been saved for a console launch. As good as it is, it's going to get lost in the shuffle of other big games and the Switch. Plus I think the price is a little much. You can get more "cutting edge" games for much more powerful hardware with $40. I love it so far but this game is kinda set up for failure.

Really? I mean I don't expect huge numbers and I agree that it could do better on Switch but I really doubt this game is gonna be a failure on Europe and specially NA, do we have any numbers pointing to that?



d21lewis said:
miqdadi said:
Right now I am happy I got this one, and I don't want to spoil the fun but the game will not sell as much as Nintendo hopes so they will focus on prime 4, after that no guarantee for another 2D metroid

Yeah. It should have been saved for a console launch. As good as it is, it's going to get lost in the shuffle of other big games and the Switch. Plus I think the price is a little much. You can get more "cutting edge" games for much more powerful hardware with $40. I love it so far but this game is kinda set up for failure.

I'd be very surprised if this game did not sell very well, all criticisms aside.

Well as in 1m+.



Yes! Samus Returns is sooo good!
And the Chozo Lab music!

Sakamoto is great!



Proud to be the first cool Nintendo fan ever

Number ONE Zelda fan in the Universe

DKCTF didn't move consoles

Prediction: No Zelda HD for Wii U, quietly moved to the succesor

Predictions for Nintendo NX and Mobile


MTZehvor said:
Snoorlax said:

I don't think it needs much explaining, it should be made clear that Samus has become an enemy of the Federation and the hunter has become the hunted later throughout the game we get "reminded" of why Samus decided to go against them and their it follows with history of the Chozo, the Metroid etc. That is more than enough to keep the game interesting as long as the gameplay is tight.

While scanning was fun in Prime not everybody is interested in scanning and reading everything they find. Besides by implementing this way of storytelling the story will automatically be dumbed down because it should not hinder the experience. That's why i feel that it should be explained with cutscenes, text or voice acting but it should be skippable and not too heavy for those who don't care and just want to enjoy the game.

Going into moderately heavy spoiler territory for the unlockable memories in Samus Returns, so avoid if you haven't finished the game.

I'm working off the assumption here that the story will have something to do with the rebel Chozo faction depicted at on the "2D/10" panel. In other words, if Nintendo wants to make a story revolving around this faction, I think a Prime style game would be the best choice. The biggest reason why is that this is a narrative that will inevitably involve a lot of backstory. Samus having a questionable relationship with the Federation is easy enough to explain in an opening Super Metroid-esque monologue. But if the game wants to tackle this group of Chozo, there's going to be a lot of backstory that the player is going to have to be supplied with. Who are these rebels? What caused them to split from the mainline, peaceful Chozo in the first place? Who is the leader that executed the SR-388 elders? What caused them to suddenly disappeared from the galaxy? What exactly do they think they can accomplish with their violent methods that the other Chozo were unable to accomplish with peace? Do they know what happened to the rest of the Chozo, and if so, what? This is the type of story that a Prime style game is better prepared to address than a 2D game; the heavy emphasis on discovering what has happened up to this point and learning about what a seemingly lost civilization did are hallmarks of the Prime series. I'll grant that not everyone enjoys scanning that much, but that's a non-unique issue; plenty of people didn't like Fusion's and Other M's stories being delivered heavily by dialogue and cutscenes as that breaks the sense of isolation (not to mention that Nintendo doesn't exactly have a great history of delivering well executed story heavy cutscenes in Metroid). Inevitably, someone's not going to be happy with the method of story delivery. But that's how it goes with video games; you're never going to be able to please everyone, and enough people seem to enjoy the Prime games that if we're worried about how much people like it, a system based off Prime seems to be the best bet.

There's a couple arguments that seemed kind of contradictory. Firstly, sure, you can make every cutscene skippable, but if you're trying to implement a story that's basically optional to players having a good time with the game, scanning seems like the surefire way to go. Prime scanning set the benchmark for stories that are entirely optional; you don't have to scan any of the lore in Prime if you don't want to and you can still enjoy the game while having a general idea of what's going on. If the idea is to create a story that people don't need to be informed about to enjoy the experience, scanning seems like the obvious choice.

Secondly, I'm not quite sure I understand the comments about "dumbing down/hindering" the experience. I'm assuming the argument is that since scanning isn't something all people enjoy, that the enjoyability factor will be lessened for people that don't want to scan? If that's the case, then they can just opt to not scan and proceed as before, same as they could with skipping cutscenes. 

Metroid's original design philosophy was to be like a silent movie. That's why "environmental storytelling" is such a treasured aspect of the series, a description I still don't like btw. Either way, it was never meant to be a literal communication of story, and Prime is not understandable at all without scanning. As much as i hate scanning, Prime is a demonstrably worse game without knowing whats going on. It has terrible narrative conveyance.

At all. Something like Ori, Teslagrad, or even Hyperlight Drifter are more in tune with the way metroid tells its stories ideally. It's not just environment. It's dialog-free action and motion unobstructed by cutscenes. I think Limbo and Inside are the same, but i haven't played those or seen gameplay.