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Forums - PC - Persona 5 is almost perfect now on PC using latest version of RPCS3.

Chazore said:
Cerebralbore101 said:
Atlus developed games will never come to Steam. Persona 5 has a better chance of seeing a Switch port than it does a PC port. Atlus has a track record of porting Persona games to handhelds. Meanwhile not even Catherine is on Steam.

Emulation threads should be locked. Unless you own the game it's basically stealing.

I wouldn't act so cock sure like that if I were you. Never say never and also emulation is a form os digital rpeservation.

 

You don't like the thread?, you do not have to come into it.

Yeah, other people have tried bringing that up too. There's no need for digital preservation. Older consoles and disks work fine to this day. 



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Zkuq said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

Emulators violate copyright law as clear as day. If you make a living by accepting patreon donations in exchange for working on an emulator for a modern system you are a criminal. 

Incorrect! If that was the case, there would be no emulators for any relatively modern systems.

Computer illiterate judges have ruled otherwise, but a judges ruling doesn't make something legal. Just look at the old Supreme court decision upholding slavery. Drugs are illegal, and yet there are still drugs. 



Almost perfect on PC?

You should've got the perfect version on PS4 then. smh



OdinHades said:
Azuren said:

Interesting spin, except no. Just the software or hardware that allows you to play a digitally stolen game on an otherwise legitimate piece of hardware. Keep trying, though. I feel like I'm arguing with a mugger on whether or not mugging people is okay.

 

It's not.

I just think it's crazy to make emulators illegal just because they can be used for piracy. That's like banning DVD writers because you could make illegal copies with it. Emulators just as homebrew on consoles are just a tool. What you do with it as a whole different story. 

Emulators are in fact important to preserve games of the past. Without them, the majority of games from the past would be lost forever soon enough. There will be a time when the last Amiga or C64 will cease to function. Without emulators we would have no way whatsoever to play the games from those machines, even if we have legitimate copies. Because of that I very much welcome emulators. I use them on a daily basis for playing some good old DOS games on my modern computer. No piracy involved. So why the heck should I suffer just because some other people use emulators for piracy? That's just nuts. That's like banning cars because some idiots use them to kill people. With that mindset MP3 would have also been declared illegal back in the day when music was only available on CDs. Sure, most people used MP3 for piracy in the 90s. But not everybody. Plus everyone profited from the tech that came with it. Streaming services today wouldn't be possible without the groundwork from MP3. In the same way virtual console wouldn't be possible today without the work from the developers of emulators. Even Nintendo themselves use tech from open source emulators and ROMs from the internet.

The gains are simply bigger than the losses on this one.

It's actually more like the initial shut down of Napster, a service designed to get free music. It's more like R4 cards, and how they were made illegal in most places.

 

There are tools that help people make things (DVD writers, for example), and tools used to pirate things (like the software used to rip movies from DVDs). Some software and hardware has to justify itself in a legal way to remain legal. Movie ripping is to keep all your media on a server, it's totally not ever used to pirate and the programmers don't support the use of it as such, right? But we know who's fucking using it and what for. The R4 card was so you can rip your games all into one convenient card, stopping the need to constantly change, right? Except Nintendo proved in court that it's purpose was for piracy.

 

I agree that emulators WERE important to preservation of older games, but companies have taken notice of that and there are legitimate ways to get a hold of nearly every title ever made digitally and legally. And yes, there are some games the still need preserving and emulators do that niche job, but there's a much larger number of people out there abusing emulators. Yes it's nice having your games in one spot and not having to worry about whether or not your old console can play them or if the cartridge still works, but there's a much larger group out there just downloading "free games". And no, it's not like banning cars because some people get killed by them. It's more like banning fake weed; the manufacturer can say it's for one thing and put "do not smoke" warnings on it, but we know what everyone is buying it for.

 

After contemplation, though, I don't feel like banning emulators would accomplish anything. Like with marijuana, people will use them regardless of their legality. The difference is no one would ever get caught driving with emulators in their cars. All we can do is watch the DRM get more and more invasive, with pirates and hackers overriding it with greater difficulty each time, claiming to be the heroes of a problem they caused.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

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Azuren said:

 All we can do is watch the DRM get more and more invasive, with pirates and hackers overriding it with greater difficulty each time, claiming to be the heroes of a problem they caused.

*slow clap*



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Cerebralbore101 said:
setsunatenshi said:

The list of consoles I owned personally (not even including portables):

Atari 5600, Famicom, Sega Mega Drive/ Genesis, Sega 32x, Sega CD, Saturn, PS1, N64, Dreamcast, PS2, PS3, X360, Wii, PS4, Switch

List of consoles still working perfectly:

PS3 (except the controler that is jenky as hell by now), PS4 and Switch

 

Hardware has a lifespan especially if actually used. So it means it WILL die eventually, there's no other way around it. In such cases the only way for me to play those games nowadays is by using emulators.

 

So even by your reply you changed the stance from "emulators should be illegal" to "playing emulated PS1, SNES, etc is fine". Ok, seems a lot more reasonable than the original position you were defending.

Now following that logic, how do you define what is "ok" to emulate and what should be "illegal"? Should the person who creates a PS3 emulator be considered some sort of criminal? What if Sony creates a PS3 emulator, is that not illegal anymore?

1 more correction I would like to make when you said "Playing  emulated PS1, SNES, Megadrive, etc. is fine since the patent ran out years ago"

What patent are you even talking about? Pirating a PS1 game is just as illegal as pirating a PS4 game (if it was even possible to do so). PS1 games are not public domain.

Finally, when you said "a lot of games do get remade, which throws another wrench in the "once the hardware dies" argument. "

If I own a game, why should I have to buy it again in order to play it? Sure, I can rebuy it for the sake of simplicity if the company decides to re-release it on newer hardware, but 1) is this the case for every game ever made? and 2) what if I prefer to save the money and play my original copy on an emulator?

In my opinion you're arguing for an unsustainable position, so much so that even the companies that actually own the IP rights to these games pretty much stopped fighting emulation on legacy hardware. It's not worth it for them in terms of public perception, and actually can help keep their IPs in the zeitgeist in case they want to use them in the future for newer releases.

Your list of working consoles is anecdotal evidence. 

My stance was always that emulators for modern games and systems should be illegal.

PS3 is last gen and thus still modern. Especially when games like Persona 5, Trails of Cold Steel, etc. are still coming out for it. Emulators violate copyright law as clear as day. If you make a living by accepting patreon donations in exchange for working on an emulator for a modern system you are a criminal. 

I meant that playing PS1 games on an emulator is fine ethically. Legally it may be another story depending on whether or not the patent on the bios is still valid. If the patent/s on the PS1 ran out, and you own the disk, then it is legal. 

If you own a game you don't need to buy it again. Most people's hardware still works to this day. If you choose to play your original copy on an emulator (something that only really exists for a single console), and the bios patent/s ran out you should be ok. 

 

 

Are you disputing that hardware given enough time and use WILL fail? Of course my personal circumstances are anectodal, but it conveys the exact point we are debating. When the hardware dies, i still own my games and I have every right to play it anywhere I want.

 

The other assertions you made are also incorrect and several other people pointed them out as well so I'll refrain from repeating them.

 

Dispite you personal opinions on this subject, the fact is emulation exists and thankfully will always exist.

 

100 years from now, today's games should still live on thanks to it.



Cerebralbore101 said:
Zkuq said:

Incorrect! If that was the case, there would be no emulators for any relatively modern systems.

1. Computer illiterate judges have ruled otherwise, but a judges ruling doesn't make something legal. Just look at the old Supreme court decision upholding slavery. 2. Drugs are illegal, and yet there are still drugs. 

1. It's legal until judged otherwise, and I don't think there's any room for debate about this. As far as I know, there haven't even been any attempts to change the situation recently, which hints at the situation not being changeable under the current legislation. If console manufacturers could sue emulator devs and expect to win, they definitely would. You can argue about whether emulation should be illegal, but there's no question about whether it is right now.

2. Since you already attempted to counter my argument, clearly you must already know this was not my argument. Why did you choose to present this argument at all then?



setsunatenshi said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

Your list of working consoles is anecdotal evidence. 

My stance was always that emulators for modern games and systems should be illegal.

PS3 is last gen and thus still modern. Especially when games like Persona 5, Trails of Cold Steel, etc. are still coming out for it. Emulators violate copyright law as clear as day. If you make a living by accepting patreon donations in exchange for working on an emulator for a modern system you are a criminal. 

I meant that playing PS1 games on an emulator is fine ethically. Legally it may be another story depending on whether or not the patent on the bios is still valid. If the patent/s on the PS1 ran out, and you own the disk, then it is legal. 

If you own a game you don't need to buy it again. Most people's hardware still works to this day. If you choose to play your original copy on an emulator (something that only really exists for a single console), and the bios patent/s ran out you should be ok. 

 

 

Are you disputing that hardware given enough time and use WILL fail? Of course my personal circumstances are anectodal, but it conveys the exact point we are debating. When the hardware dies, i still own my games and I have every right to play it anywhere I want.

 

The other assertions you made are also incorrect and several other people pointed them out as well so I'll refrain from repeating them.

 

Dispite you personal opinions on this subject, the fact is emulation exists and thankfully will always exist.

 

100 years from now, today's games should still live on thanks to it.

There are five different Mom'n Pop game shops in my city. They sell everything from Atari to PS4. There are shops like this all across the world.If hardware failed as quickly as you thought they would all be out of bussiness by now. Yes in 60 year's time there will be very few working systems, but not absolutely no working systems. The Mona Lisa survived hundreds of years. Original game carts and disks should be just fine. Not to mention the code for most games hasn't been lost. You won't need an emulator to grab the original code off the net, and 3D print a PS1 in 2074. Hell, by then I'm sure you would be able to just insert a disk or cart into a device and extract all the code from there no problem. 



Zkuq said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

1. Computer illiterate judges have ruled otherwise, but a judges ruling doesn't make something legal. Just look at the old Supreme court decision upholding slavery. 2. Drugs are illegal, and yet there are still drugs. 

1. It's legal until judged otherwise, and I don't think there's any room for debate about this. As far as I know, there haven't even been any attempts to change the situation recently, which hints at the situation not being changeable under the current legislation. If console manufacturers could sue emulator devs and expect to win, they definitely would. You can argue about whether emulation should be illegal, but there's no question about whether it is right now.

2. Since you already attempted to counter my argument, clearly you must already know this was not my argument. Why did you choose to present this argument at all then?

1. So Slavery was legal despite clear evidence to the contrary just because judges deemed it so? Is that how the law works now? 

2. What are you talking about? 



Cerebralbore101 said:
Zkuq said:

1. It's legal until judged otherwise, and I don't think there's any room for debate about this. As far as I know, there haven't even been any attempts to change the situation recently, which hints at the situation not being changeable under the current legislation. If console manufacturers could sue emulator devs and expect to win, they definitely would. You can argue about whether emulation should be illegal, but there's no question about whether it is right now.

2. Since you already attempted to counter my argument, clearly you must already know this was not my argument. Why did you choose to present this argument at all then?

1. So Slavery was legal despite clear evidence to the contrary just because judges deemed it so? Is that how the law works now? 

2. What are you talking about? 

1. I'm not familiar enough with your history to be able to answer to this properly. If you can provide be me a short elaboration, I'll gladly look into it however. Anyway, if a judge's judgement on a matter isn't the official interpretation of the law and thus effectively the law, I don't know what is. Whether that's the correct interpretation of the law might be questionable of course. Maybe you should have a system for fixing judges' errors, but I'd say that's an entirely different issue. Getting back to the actual emulator topic though: Which copyrighted property do you think emulators are violating?

2. I'm not stupid. I know very well something being illegal has nothing to do with its existence. Laws need enforcement to be effective. Anyway, your arguments 1 and 2 are seemingly separate and seemingly counter-arguments to two different arguments, while I only had one argument. Thus, it seemed odd that you seemed to be countering two different arguments when I only had one.