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Forums - General Discussion - Doe it really matter if God exists or not...?

 

I am

Theist 96 20.25%
 
Atheist 178 37.55%
 
Agnostic 96 20.25%
 
Spiritual but non theist 29 6.12%
 
Other 32 6.75%
 
God. 43 9.07%
 
Total:474
CartBlanche said:
o_O.Q said:

it does because without god objective morality cannot exist

I think you'll find there is no way for the morality of a so called god to be objective, because the information emparted is done so via humans who are incapable of being truely 100% objective. Until a god (take your pick from the millions that exist and used to exist) speaks directly to a computer and that information is transcribed directly for the masses, there is no objective morality!! Even then once a human reads the "message" it ceases to be objective as it would be subject to each person's world view.

Even if god's morality is transmitted directly to each mind by god, there is still no objective morality.  If we all decided to do what god wants because he's god and he's powerful, then that's obedience, not morality.  If we were to actually be moral agents , we would need some kind of criteria by which to judge whether god's commandments were moral or not, and that would require us to create a moral standard outside god.

The only way you get to objective morality through god is if you define morality as being anything in accordance with god's will, but that's just circular reasoning.



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SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

 define altruism and empathy

They are the feelings, emotions and actions that puts the well being of others as equally important (if not more so) than your own.  It is the selfless direction of ensuring your actions not only do not cause harm to others but also benefit them.  It is the recognition and internal actualization of the needs of others and accepting they having warrant and value.

If one lives by these notions but does not worship a God and that God's moral laws mandate worship or face eternal suffering, then that God was never moral to begin with.  Worship should never be attached to punishment.  All associated morality is then a mechanism of fear rather than simply doing and being good and virtuous.

 

"feelings" therefore they are subjective meaning that they vary across people 

how could you use something that varies as a measure of morality?

 

i realise that people use empathy as this catch all word to address the issue of morality and often it seems to me like they don't really get what empathy actually is

 

people are generally very empathetic to members of their own social grouping and far less so towards members of other social groupings and that all by itself throws empathy out the window with regards to it being a solution



Nem said:
o_O.Q said:

 define altruism and empathy

Both are chemical hormonic processes, might even be the same one.

They compel you to protect the weak and the young and coopertation in society to increase survival.

Any more questions? You gonna tell me God is magically pushing hormones to make that happen?

 

"Both are chemical hormonic processes, might even be the same one.

They compel you to protect the weak and the young and coopertation in society to increase survival."

 

wrong

if a you pat a bear cub on its head and its mother seeks you out and mauls the crap out of you

the bear is doing that out of feelings of empathy for its kin... are you now starting to understand the problem?

 

or a better example since you'll say a bear is a stupid animal is as i've stated in this thread before

if 300 innocent civilians are killed in syria to kill 1 terrorist no one bats an eye

but let 10 people get killed from a terrorist in a wastern country and everyone loses their minds



JWeinCom said:
numberwang said:
G. Washington did not believe in morality separated from religion.

https://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/WashingtonFarewell.html

Ok..?  Who cares?

George Washington said and did some great things.  He said and did some dumb things.  This is one of the dumb ones.

When they've studied it, there is a negative correlation between religiousity and quality of life among nations.  Plenty of mostly secular countries (Scandanavian Countries, Israel, Japan) have been doing pretty well in terms of crime rates and other indications of morality.

Cerebralbore101 said:

That's not what argument from ignorance is. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ignorant.html 

There is no evidence for God, therefore God doesn't exist is an argument from ignorance. 

There is no evidence against God, therefore God exists is another argument from ignorance. 

The argument from ignorance takes the form of "There is no evidence for A therefore not A", and "There is no evidence against B therefore B".

There is no evidence for god, therefore god doesn't exist is not necessarily an argument for ignorance fallacy.  In cases where we should expect evidence for something, then pointing out that there is not evidence can be a valid argument.  For example, if I claimed there was a fire in my house, and there is no scorch marks, no smoke damage, etc, then the lack of evidence is proof that there was no fire. 

It depends on the particular god you're arguing for, but generally, the absence of evidence is a pretty logical case against it, or at least a case for not believing in it.

As for the argument I gave as an example it is absolutely an argument from ignorance fallacy.  But, since people don't generally talk in logical syllogisms (and I find the particular poster isn't particularly clear) then it gets messy.

If you're saying it's reasonable to believe in god because there is so much we don't know, that is an argument from ignorance.  The argument goes, since we don't know everything, we can't completely rule out the possibility god is lurking outside our knowledge.  That means we don't have definitive proof against him/her/schlee/schler, so it is reasonable to believe in it.  

That is quite literally an appeal to what we are ignorant of to support a position. 

Likewise, claiming that god (fictive or otherwise) is necessary for objective morality (that has not been shown to exist) becaue nobody has provided another method (which people had) without positive evidence that god is necessary or sufficient for objective morality is definitely an argument from ignorance.  

That's a modus tollens, not an argument from ignorance. It takes the form of if P then Q. Not Q, therefore not P. Or to put it into the house burning argument that you used. If P (my house burnt down), then Q (there should be scorch marks and fire damage). There are not any scorch marks or fire damage (Not Q), therefore my house didn't burn down (Not P). 

The problem with the the argument from ignorance fallacy is that the statement "If X then there should be evidence for X" does not always follow. For example "If Joe killed Sue there should be evidence that Joe killed Sue." This statement is illogical because Joe could have destroyed the evidence, or taken special care not to produce any evidence. 

I agree that absence of evidence is a case for not believing in a God. But it is not a case for believing that a God *doesn't* exist. 



CartBlanche said:
o_O.Q said:

it does because without god objective morality cannot exist

I think you'll find there is no way for the morality of a so called god to be objective, because the information emparted is done so via humans who are incapable of being truely 100% objective. Until a god (take your pick from the millions that exist and used to exist) speaks directly to a computer and that information is transcribed directly for the masses, there is no objective morality!! Even then once a human reads the "message" it ceases to be objective as it would be subject to each person's world view.

 

that's why people have made observations for ages about what behavior is most favourable for man (is this not objective?)

and they took that knowledge and encoded it into stories for digestion by everyone... stories that gave these values a significance that transcends the subjective view of man and that is where the concepts of gods cames from

it is the best method devised by man to communicate what values are most favourable to successive generations

 

well if you don't think there's such a thing as objectivity... all i can say is that you are in a lot of trouble



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JWeinCom said:
Eagle367 said:

I'm actually not doing any of those things of course. Hell if you meet me in person you won't even guess that I think this way. The only two things that would actually make me do these things is if I find out there is no God or if I found put everything is predetermined somehow cause then what the hell who cares. I am very loosely connected to this world and am completely sane as of now is my point.s

I can only judge what you're saying, but it does not sound like someone who is completely sane.  It sounds sociopathic.  If you actually feel that way, and you're not just having fun over the internet, then you need help.

You can never tell can you? But seriously I feel like everyone should visit a shrink  even the most intact people



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Cerebralbore101 said:
JWeinCom said:

Ok..?  Who cares?

George Washington said and did some great things.  He said and did some dumb things.  This is one of the dumb ones.

When they've studied it, there is a negative correlation between religiousity and quality of life among nations.  Plenty of mostly secular countries (Scandanavian Countries, Israel, Japan) have been doing pretty well in terms of crime rates and other indications of morality.

There is no evidence for god, therefore god doesn't exist is not necessarily an argument for ignorance fallacy.  In cases where we should expect evidence for something, then pointing out that there is not evidence can be a valid argument.  For example, if I claimed there was a fire in my house, and there is no scorch marks, no smoke damage, etc, then the lack of evidence is proof that there was no fire. 

It depends on the particular god you're arguing for, but generally, the absence of evidence is a pretty logical case against it, or at least a case for not believing in it.

As for the argument I gave as an example it is absolutely an argument from ignorance fallacy.  But, since people don't generally talk in logical syllogisms (and I find the particular poster isn't particularly clear) then it gets messy.

If you're saying it's reasonable to believe in god because there is so much we don't know, that is an argument from ignorance.  The argument goes, since we don't know everything, we can't completely rule out the possibility god is lurking outside our knowledge.  That means we don't have definitive proof against him/her/schlee/schler, so it is reasonable to believe in it.  

That is quite literally an appeal to what we are ignorant of to support a position. 

Likewise, claiming that god (fictive or otherwise) is necessary for objective morality (that has not been shown to exist) becaue nobody has provided another method (which people had) without positive evidence that god is necessary or sufficient for objective morality is definitely an argument from ignorance.  

That's a modus tollens, not an argument from ignorance. It takes the form of if P then Q. Not Q, therefore not P. Or to put it into the house burning argument that you used. If P (my house burnt down), then Q (there should be scorch marks and fire damage). There are not any scorch marks or fire damage (Not Q), therefore my house didn't burn down (Not P). 

The problem with the the argument from ignorance fallacy is that the statement "If X then there should be evidence for X" does not always follow. For example "If Joe killed Sue there should be evidence that Joe killed Sue." This statement is illogical because Joe could have destroyed the evidence, or taken special care not to produce any evidence. 

I agree that absence of evidence is a case for not believing in a God. But it is not a case for believing that a God *doesn't* exist. 

That's why I said that it depends on what kind of god you're arguing for. 

If you're arguing for a deistic first cause kind of god, or using god to mean any being with power that transcends human knowledge, then evidence wouldn't matter, because that kind of god may or may not leave evidence.

When you're arguing for a god with specific characteristics though, then you often should expect evidence.  For example, if someone wanted to argue for a god that answers prayers from christians, you'd expect evidence in the form of prayers answered at a rate higher than chance.  If we look examine and can't find that evidence, then that is evidence against that version of god.



John2290 said:
Eagle367 said:

I am actually quite sound of mind by the looks of it. I am studying physics and i understand stuff easily that others have a hard time learning. I am hoping to go all P.HD. I'm just saying I keep all the demons in check. My mind is like a conglomerate of different people and right now I am keeping everyone in check but one flip of a switch and everything will go wrong that switch is based solely on two things. Existence of God and predetermination. If the first is false or the second truce then I'll just let go and have the voices reign supreme

I really hope you're joking here, this is actually quite scary. The mind of a sociopath is terrifying. 

Psychopath more than sociopath. Sociopaths are just innocent introverts who have a hard time adjusting to societal norms and are awkward in conversation and seem aloof or goofy many a time. Hell most of our world leaders are psychopaths. Today's society makes it so psychopaths whush to the top. What I have or the person I am calling myself would presume to have would be a mixture of insanity psychopathy sociopathy and multiple personality disorder. Where the one in control is perfectly sane and to some maybe even an exceptional and model human being or an annoying brother or lazy son but the other parts are varying degrees of crazy. Ofcourse full on multiple personality disorder would be the sane person would never be aware of the insane person or persons and that would be bad since they would become unhinged. Of course at the end of the day you'll never learn whether I am joking with you or its the truth or I have an imaginative mind and somehow feel these stupid things are really cool. I might even die without anyone truly knowing. The only true way to know is if I someday go full on crazy and you think back to a guy who said these things to you who has finally gone fully insane.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Nem said:
o_O.Q said:

 define altruism and empathy

Both are chemical hormonic processes, might even be the same one.

They compel you to protect the weak and the young and coopertation in society to increase survival.

Any more questions? You gonna tell me God is magically pushing hormones to make that happen?

To build up on your hormones argument, there are studies that look into the relationship between hormones and empathy. For instance, this study shows that oxytocin reinforces emotional empathy. The hormone also improves learning in a social environment. There's also another study that shows that there is some genetic basis for altruism, particularly the genes that code for oxytocin and vasopressin receptors. My guess for how altruism and emphathy evolved in mammals is that the "altruism" and "empathy" genes first evolved from mutation and genetic variation. Those genes get selected for because they prove to be advantageous for the population, i.e. improving the population's fitness (natural selection). If those genes were detrimental to the survival of the population, then they would not exist.



JWeinCom said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

That's a modus tollens, not an argument from ignorance. It takes the form of if P then Q. Not Q, therefore not P. Or to put it into the house burning argument that you used. If P (my house burnt down), then Q (there should be scorch marks and fire damage). There are not any scorch marks or fire damage (Not Q), therefore my house didn't burn down (Not P). 

The problem with the the argument from ignorance fallacy is that the statement "If X then there should be evidence for X" does not always follow. For example "If Joe killed Sue there should be evidence that Joe killed Sue." This statement is illogical because Joe could have destroyed the evidence, or taken special care not to produce any evidence. 

I agree that absence of evidence is a case for not believing in a God. But it is not a case for believing that a God *doesn't* exist. 

That's why I said that it depends on what kind of god you're arguing for. 

If you're arguing for a deistic first cause kind of god, or using god to mean any being with power that transcends human knowledge, then evidence wouldn't matter, because that kind of god may or may not leave evidence.

When you're arguing for a god with specific characteristics though, then you often should expect evidence.  For example, if someone wanted to argue for a god that answers prayers from christians, you'd expect evidence in the form of prayers answered at a rate higher than chance.  If we look examine and can't find that evidence, then that is evidence against that version of god.

B.I.N.G.O! You hit the nail on the head with that post!