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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Emulation - The Legalities, Ethics, Benefits and Drawbacks

CladInShadows said:

What are the legalities and ethics around emulation?

I'll be honest and say legally I don't know.  Emulation seems to exist in a legally grey area. It's legal to use an emulator.  It's legal to dump your own BIOS, but illegal to download a BIOS.  It's "legal" to back up your Wii games, but "illegal" to download a Wii game you already own.  Ethically, emulation is A-OK in my book.  For me it all comes down to whether the creators are paid for their efforts when I play a game.  I'll take the Wii example.  I own a Wii.  I also own a Wii U.  So I own two systems capable of playing Wii games.  Nintendo has my money. Two games I have emulated the most on Dolphin were Xenoblade and Skyward Sword.  I can look to my right and see both of those games sitting on my shelf.  I paid for them. Does it then matter that I had to acquire a Wii BIOS through shady means?  Does it matter that I had to download the Skyward Sword ISO file to play it?  Legally, I have broken the law.  But ethically, I have done nothing wrong.  I am playing a game that I have purchased, for a system that I have purchased.  I just happen to be playing it on another piece of hardware because the results are more pleasing to the eye.  I have since gotten a DVD drive that is capable of ripping Wii ISO files, so Xenoblade was ripped legally.  So, if I were to delete my downloaded Zelda ISO and then rip it using this new drive, does that make everything better?  Legally, I suppose it does.  Ethically, there's no fucking difference. Not one bit. If I were to gain the means to dump my own BIOS and replace my current one with THE EXACT SAME FILE, I'd be OK in the eyes of the law, but otherwise nothing changes.  Nintendo has long since gotten my money.  That amount of money will never have changed no matter how I was able to go about playing these games on my PC. They are unaffected by my actions. If anybody here can tell me a legitimate reason why there is a difference, then maybe I'll change my tune.  Otherwise, we're just arguing semantics. I pay my money to the creators.  I play their game.  End of transaction.

I applaud your efforts to do the right thing. The only reason I can give you, is that you support piracy by downloading roms. You add to the popularity of them, adding another download to the tally, justifying others to do the same. Others that might not own a legal copy.

To give an analogy. Over the years I have found that the best way to keep a publicly accessible space clean is not by putting up signs or bins etc, but by making sure it is clean in the first place. When people see other people do something, they'll more inclined to do it themselves. When they find it neat and tidy, they tend to want to keep it that way.  If I clean it straigh way in spring I maybe take out a small plastic bag of trash and it stays nice. Wait a few weeks and there's a garbage bag full of crap around. It multiplies!

By downloading the Rom you legitimize downloading said roms in the eyes of others. So yes, ethically there is a small difference. Which is also why using emulators for brand new games shouldn't be advertised. Monkey see, monkey does. That's the human race.



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SvennoJ said:
Safiir said:
I've already said my opinion on the matter and how much I disagree with SvennoJ (I'm singling you out because you seem to be making the most coherent arguments against emulation :) ) but would like to point out that emulation is not limited only to game consoles. For example VMware is used in a lot of IT companies in order to create multiple virtual machines on a single server. Completely official and legal. Could it be used in order to run pirate software? Absolutely! Does it have any safeguards in order to assure pirated software cannot be used? Not a single one! Why isn't there outrage against it?

VMWare is not promoted here.
VMWare is not shown to be running brand new games.
VMWare is not available for download bundled with pirated games.

Emulators are easier to make without using a virtual machine. No need to go through an extra hoop which would only slow things down. I can't really find anything about VMWare used for piracy, only VMWare getting pirated itself. Emulators however...

It's completely different. There is no outrage against DOSBox either, mini nes, virtual console, BC etc. Promoting or making a program available that actively encourages people to circumvent security measures and or download pirated versions of brand new software is where the line gets crossed.

You can use VMWare for piracy by downloading the operating systems off the internet, which is something I would wager that most people who use VMWare do. (Italics) Using VMWare you can run OSX (or previous Apple OSes) on a non-Apple computer, this is something which violates the EULA. DOSBox is used by companies to run some of their games but there is nothing preventing you from using pirated PC games on it either.

So I am unsure why you think there is a distinction here.



SvennoJ said:
CladInShadows said:

What are the legalities and ethics around emulation?

I'll be honest and say legally I don't know.  Emulation seems to exist in a legally grey area. It's legal to use an emulator.  It's legal to dump your own BIOS, but illegal to download a BIOS.  It's "legal" to back up your Wii games, but "illegal" to download a Wii game you already own.  Ethically, emulation is A-OK in my book.  For me it all comes down to whether the creators are paid for their efforts when I play a game.  I'll take the Wii example.  I own a Wii.  I also own a Wii U.  So I own two systems capable of playing Wii games.  Nintendo has my money. Two games I have emulated the most on Dolphin were Xenoblade and Skyward Sword.  I can look to my right and see both of those games sitting on my shelf.  I paid for them. Does it then matter that I had to acquire a Wii BIOS through shady means?  Does it matter that I had to download the Skyward Sword ISO file to play it?  Legally, I have broken the law.  But ethically, I have done nothing wrong.  I am playing a game that I have purchased, for a system that I have purchased.  I just happen to be playing it on another piece of hardware because the results are more pleasing to the eye.  I have since gotten a DVD drive that is capable of ripping Wii ISO files, so Xenoblade was ripped legally.  So, if I were to delete my downloaded Zelda ISO and then rip it using this new drive, does that make everything better?  Legally, I suppose it does.  Ethically, there's no fucking difference. Not one bit. If I were to gain the means to dump my own BIOS and replace my current one with THE EXACT SAME FILE, I'd be OK in the eyes of the law, but otherwise nothing changes.  Nintendo has long since gotten my money.  That amount of money will never have changed no matter how I was able to go about playing these games on my PC. They are unaffected by my actions. If anybody here can tell me a legitimate reason why there is a difference, then maybe I'll change my tune.  Otherwise, we're just arguing semantics. I pay my money to the creators.  I play their game.  End of transaction.

I applaud your efforts to do the right thing. The only reason I can give you, is that you support piracy by downloading roms. You add to the popularity of them, adding another download to the tally, justifying others to do the same. Others that might not own a legal copy.

To give an analogy. Over the years I have found that the best way to keep a publicly accessible space clean is not by putting up signs or bins etc, but by making sure it is clean in the first place. When people see other people do something, they'll more inclined to do it themselves. When they find it neat and tidy, they tend to want to keep it that way.  If I clean it straigh way in spring I maybe take out a small plastic bag of trash and it stays nice. Wait a few weeks and there's a garbage bag full of crap around. It multiplies!

By downloading the Rom you legitimize downloading said roms in the eyes of others. So yes, ethically there is a small difference. Which is also why using emulators for brand new games shouldn't be advertised. Monkey see, monkey does. That's the human race.

Yeah, that was the only reason I could think of as well.  But honestly that argument doesn't hold much weight with me. I just did a quick search for the Skyward Sword ISO, since I don't remember where I got it from.  None of the sites showed a download tally of any kind.  I'll admit I didn't spend much time looking, though.  So if we're talking about a download tally only visible to the owner of the site, then I suppose the owner would see an additional download from me.  So in some miniscule way, I have validated the pirate's existence. Though I doubt I was the "make or break" statistic for any of the Wii or Gamecube games I have downloaded.  PS1/PS2 games I always ripped on my own.  And I suppose you could also make the argument that I am indirectly supporting piracy by giving one more download for Rawdump, which is the program I use to rip my Wii games today.  But people are going to rip and pirate whether or not I download or rip games I have already paid for.  I'm a small non-existent drop in the bucket of the piracy world.



Bandorr said:
Super_Boom said:

I share most of the views shared here, very well-written post.

Overall, I can't say I'm completely behind banning piracy discussion from emulation threads, as I'm not convinced the two are as independent as some feel. It seems like there will always be that elephant in the room, akin to banning discussion on gun control in gun ownership threads (I know it's an extreme example, don't rip my throat out). That being said, if the community feels confident they can maintain discussion on legal use of emulation, I don't mind giving this suggestion a chance at least.

Of course, when it comes to piracy or illegal forms of emulation, I would be completely behind more severe moderation, depending on the offense, as I find it absolutely shameful that scum that don't contribute to the developers that sweated over these games are pretending to have the same hobby as those of us who do.

I agree, and actually I like the gun reference. I was considering something akin to a gun and a bullet. A bullet (A Rom) is pointless without the gun (the Emulator). Some people do legal things with a gun (playing games you own) some people do illegal things (like piracy). So as far as things do the example isn't a bad one, although not perfect either.

The problem with that analogy is you're not committing a crime using an emulator, the crime is from software piracy. It would be akin to buying a gun legally but obtaining the ammunition from an illegal source. Or more simply, it's like buying a PC but then illegally downloading all of your games (or programs).



Bandorr said:
Leadified said:

The problem with that analogy is you're not committing a crime using an emulator, the crime is from software piracy. It would be akin to buying a gun legally but obtaining the ammunition from an illegal source. Or more simply, it's like buying a PC but then illegally downloading all of your games (or programs).

I consider it closer to buying a gun legally.. but then not caring what happens to it afterwards. The emulators are created legally, but could be used when people download illegal ROMs.

I'm not actually sure what effort emulator writers could put in though to try and curb piracy.  Scan for the game in the drive? Game companies would have to pitch in and offer databases of valid serial numbers for emulators to scan or have one entered and checked.

Perhaps any ROMs not created on that computer can't be used?

I can't completely blame emulator writers for not trying to curb piracy, but I also can't say they are in the clear either.

Considering companies' stance on emulation, I doubt we would get much cooperation from them.  Usually they employ more of a "cease and desist" kind of solution to these things.  

Also, and I don't know if this has changed much over the years, but performance was often slower if the game was read directly from the disc.  So if some kind of copy protection were to be used, it would be nice if the game could still be run from an ISO, but would check for the existence of a disc.



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Bandorr said:
Leadified said:

The problem with that analogy is you're not committing a crime using an emulator, the crime is from software piracy. It would be akin to buying a gun legally but obtaining the ammunition from an illegal source. Or more simply, it's like buying a PC but then illegally downloading all of your games (or programs).

I consider it closer to buying a gun legally.. but then not caring what happens to it afterwards. The emulators are created legally, but could be used when people download illegal ROMs.

I'm not actually sure what effort emulator writers could put in though to try and curb piracy.  Scan for the game in the drive? Game companies would have to pitch in and offer databases of valid serial numbers for emulators to scan or have one entered and checked.

Perhaps any ROMs not created on that computer can't be used?

I can't completely blame emulator writers for not trying to curb piracy, but I also can't say they are in the clear either.

I'd argue that they shouldn't even bother. Even if piracy itself is a problem, the amount of lost sales from people pirating a game for emulation is dwarfed by the amount of people who download the game illegaly on cracked consoles or on PCs. You cannot emulate PS4 games right now, but you can pirate PS4 games. Even for new games like Persona 5 or BotW (which are exceptions to the rule of emulation), it's still a work in progress to get them running and you need a powerful PC, someone who simply wants to pirate the games will just use a cracked console instead, and they do. I don't think emulation itself is that big of a problem that needs intervention.

Enforcing those standards on emulators would completely redefine on how you can use software in any way, by giving companies more right and eroding consumer rights. This would do nothing to curb piracy, any system can be and will be cracked. At the end of the day these measures would only hurt the legal consumer while doing nothing to stop pirates.

Emulators are just a tool, I don't think that the emulator creator bears any liability for the same reason I don't believe a gun manufacturer has liability for how people use a gun. In the end, the benefits from both tools outweigh the negatives that may arise. Especially for software which is so easy to lose forever and it seems that companies are not very good at maintaining databases (see the Eurogamer video on the VC version of Super Mario Bros. which suggests they used a ROM they got off the internet).



Bandorr said:
Leadified said:

I'd argue that they shouldn't even bother. Even if piracy itself is a problem, the amount of lost sales from people pirating a game for emulation is dwarfed by the amount of people who download the game illegaly on cracked consoles or on PCs. You cannot emulate PS4 games right now, but you can pirate PS4 games. Even for new games like Persona 5 or BotW (which are exceptions to the rule of emulation), it's still a work in progress to get them running and you need a powerful PC, someone who simply wants to pirate the games will just use a cracked console instead, and they do. I don't think emulation itself is that big of a problem that needs intervention.

Enforcing those standards on emulators would completely redefine on how you can use software in any way, by giving companies more right and eroding consumer rights. This would do nothing to curb piracy, any system can be and will be cracked. At the end of the day these measures would only hurt the legal consumer while doing nothing to stop pirates.

Emulators are just a tool, I don't think that the emulator creator bears any liability for the same reason I don't believe a gun manufacturer has liability for how people use a gun. In the end, the benefits from both tools outweigh the negatives that may arise. Especially for software which is so easy to lose forever and it seems that companies are not very good at maintaining databases (see the Eurogamer video on the VC version of Super Mario Bros. which suggests they used a ROM they got off the internet).

Yeah there would probably be little to no benefit. Even if one emulator supported it, the others wouldn't. So they would have to 'offer' a reason to use that one emulator that is supported. Which they just won't be able too. Plus that would just encourage piracy/emulation to a degree.

Nature of capitalism really. Still, companies could take note of demand and offer their own legal emulators and ROMs which SEGA and SNK do on Steam.



Leadified said:
Bandorr said:

Yeah there would probably be little to no benefit. Even if one emulator supported it, the others wouldn't. So they would have to 'offer' a reason to use that one emulator that is supported. Which they just won't be able too. Plus that would just encourage piracy/emulation to a degree.

Nature of capitalism really. Still, companies could take note of demand and offer their own legal emulators and ROMs which SEGA and SNK do on Steam.

I miss the days where companies would put their retro games into a compilation instead of selling them separately. I liked SNK Arcade Classics and Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection.



VGPolyglot said:
Leadified said:

Nature of capitalism really. Still, companies could take note of demand and offer their own legal emulators and ROMs which SEGA and SNK do on Steam.

I miss the days where companies would put their retro games into a compilation instead of selling them separately. I liked SNK Arcade Classics and Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection.

Yeah I think those days are long gone now because of digital marketplaces, but sometimes you'll see something like Mega Man Legacy Collection once in a blue moon.



Question for everyone who says emulation = piracy... how exactly does one "pirate" software that has been out of print for decades and can only be obtained in physical form on the 2nd hand market via private sale or professional resellers looking to make a mint off the most popular and rare / obscure titles out there?

Emulation is not the same thing as downloading "ripped" or "cracked" copies of currently published titles off torrent sites on your PC, or modding your console to play burned discs of said copies. As long as the console & software are no longer being produced, and the emulation programs and ROM files aren't locked behind some sort of paywall, there is nothing wrong with emulation.



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.