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Forums - Gaming - Emulation - The Legalities, Ethics, Benefits and Drawbacks

We should remodel this into a gun control debate. I think the consensus is that if the majority of people does something bad with your product it should be banned.

I think we all agree that the majority of gun owners uses it to shoot people. Shooting people is illegal, so guns should be banned. Also any talk about guns. If you support guns then you support murder, it's simple, really.
And while we're at it ban all drugs including cigarettes and alcohol. The majority uses it irresponsibly and risks the lives and livelihoods of innocent people. If you support tobacco or alcohol you also support murder.



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Cerebralbore101 said:

And buying lockpicking tools doesn't mean you're going to go breaking into people's houses, but they are still illegal in the U.S. to own unless you are a locksmith. In fact I'm pretty sure it's a felony.

Except emulation isn't unlocking or breaking into anything, it's reverse engineering.
It's like when AMD or Cyrix took an Intel chip and reverse engineered their own x86 compatible processors by studying how they worked, Intel tried to take the legal high-road and lost.

Emulators are just a software environment, people can and do build their own software from scratch for these emulators, it's why Homebrew is as big as it is... Or why Xbox Media Center got so popular at one point.

Cerebralbore101 said:

Every PC User =/= 43% of the 35% that admitted to pirating games. But keep those strawmen coming. You can't pirate on a console without first breaking the system which requires a PC. Not to mention very few people want to hack their consoles, since it voids the warranty, and gives the console manufacturer a reason to brick your system the instant it goes online. Oh, and hacking a system massively devalues it. Used game shops won't even take them in the states. 

What makes you think you need a PC?

The NES and SNES classic have shown a ton of people are happy to mod/hack a console... And mod chips to circumvent copy protection was actually a very big thing in the PS1 and PS2 era's.




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vivster said:
We should remodel this into a gun control debate. I think the consensus is that if the majority of people does something bad with your product it should be banned.

I think we all agree that the majority of gun owners uses it to shoot people. Shooting people is illegal, so guns should be banned. Also any talk about guns. If you support guns then you support murder, it's simple, really.
And while we're at it ban all drugs including cigarettes and alcohol. The majority uses it irresponsibly and risks the lives and livelihoods of innocent people. If you support tobacco or alcohol you also support murder.

The problem with that argument is that the majority of gun owners in america don't use them to kill people. If most gun owners were running around killing people then banning guns would make perfect sense. And to be honest we should ban certain types of guns, just like we should ban certian types of emulation. Nobody needs a machine gun to hunt deer with, and likewise there's no need to make an emulator for Wii U a mere two and a half years after the console launched. Smoking has been banned in certain public places, and driving drunk is illegal. See how the law doesn't allow people to do specific things, when those things are applicable? And no, I never said that anybody that supports emulation supports piracy, so your analogy fails there too. But you don't understand the difference between "all emulators are pirates!", and "most people who emulate current gen console games are pirates, never paying for the software"



Cerebralbore101 said:
vivster said:
We should remodel this into a gun control debate. I think the consensus is that if the majority of people does something bad with your product it should be banned.

I think we all agree that the majority of gun owners uses it to shoot people. Shooting people is illegal, so guns should be banned. Also any talk about guns. If you support guns then you support murder, it's simple, really.
And while we're at it ban all drugs including cigarettes and alcohol. The majority uses it irresponsibly and risks the lives and livelihoods of innocent people. If you support tobacco or alcohol you also support murder.

The problem with that argument is that the majority of gun owners in america don't use them to kill people. If most gun owners were running around killing people then banning guns would make perfect sense. And to be honest we should ban certain types of guns, just like we should ban certian types of emulation. Nobody needs a machine gun to hunt deer with, and likewise there's no need to make an emulator for Wii U a mere two and a half years after the console launched. Smoking has been banned in certain public places, and driving drunk is illegal. See how the law doesn't allow people to do specific things, when those things are applicable? And no, I never said that anybody that supports emulation supports piracy, so your analogy fails there too. But you don't understand the difference between "all emulators are pirates!", and "most people who emulate current gen console games are pirates, never paying for the software"

And how do you want to enforce it? You want to send a whole bunch of people who use emulators to jail? While we're at it, why not send every single person who has pirated anything to jail! Like the prisons aren't already overcrowded as is...



Pemalite said:

Except emulation isn't unlocking or breaking into anything, it's reverse engineering.
It's like when AMD or Cyrix took an Intel chip and reverse engineered their own x86 compatible processors by studying how they worked, Intel tried to take the legal high-road and lost.

Emulators are just a software environment, people can and do build their own software from scratch for these emulators, it's why Homebrew is as big as it is... Or why Xbox Media Center got so popular at one point.

What makes you think you need a PC?


The NES and SNES classic have shown a ton of people are happy to mod/hack a console... And mod chips to circumvent copy protection was actually a very big thing in the PS1 and PS2 era's.

Both are tools that can be used for theft, and in the case of BotW, and Persona 5, they are overwhelmingly being used for theft. A PC comes along somewhere in the process. The code for custom firmware to crack a modern console is written on a PC. Same thing goes for mod chips. 



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Cerebralbore101 said:
Pemalite said:

Except emulation isn't unlocking or breaking into anything, it's reverse engineering.
It's like when AMD or Cyrix took an Intel chip and reverse engineered their own x86 compatible processors by studying how they worked, Intel tried to take the legal high-road and lost.

Emulators are just a software environment, people can and do build their own software from scratch for these emulators, it's why Homebrew is as big as it is... Or why Xbox Media Center got so popular at one point.

What makes you think you need a PC?


The NES and SNES classic have shown a ton of people are happy to mod/hack a console... And mod chips to circumvent copy protection was actually a very big thing in the PS1 and PS2 era's.

Both are tools that can be used for theft, and in the case of BotW, and Persona 5, they are overwhelmingly being used for theft. A PC comes along somewhere in the process. The code for custom firmware to crack a modern console is written on a PC. Same thing goes for mod chips. 

Digital piracy is not theft. Nothing is taking away from the producer. A pirate would never have paid for it anyway so there is literally no loss to the producer.



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VGPolyglot said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

The problem with that argument is that the majority of gun owners in america don't use them to kill people. If most gun owners were running around killing people then banning guns would make perfect sense. And to be honest we should ban certain types of guns, just like we should ban certian types of emulation. Nobody needs a machine gun to hunt deer with, and likewise there's no need to make an emulator for Wii U a mere two and a half years after the console launched. Smoking has been banned in certain public places, and driving drunk is illegal. See how the law doesn't allow people to do specific things, when those things are applicable? And no, I never said that anybody that supports emulation supports piracy, so your analogy fails there too. But you don't understand the difference between "all emulators are pirates!", and "most people who emulate current gen console games are pirates, never paying for the software"

And how do you want to enforce it? You want to send a whole bunch of people who use emulators to jail? While we're at it, why not send every single person who has pirated anything to jail! Like the prisons aren't already overcrowded as is...

Legally it's pretty much unenforcable, unless we want to shut down the internet. But the least we could do is ban talk of emulation of games that are on store shelves, on this message board. But the mods don't care if a game gets stolen or not. Since 30% to 10% of people emulating BotW or Persona 5 paid for a disc, they want to look the other way. When most people who loiter on a certain street corner are selling drugs, the cops don't just go "oh well, a small minority of them are legit so let's ignore the whole thing". They make a point to patrol the area more, and do everything they can to get the drug dealers out of their neighborhood. They make stake outs and do something about it. Now I realize that the mods aren't cops, and that they have no bussiness arresting people, but at the very least they should ban talk of certain games in emulation threads. They should be a nuisance to anybody that is just using the thread as a cover for piracy. 

The mods on these forums are like a police officer that thinks all drugs should be legal, and doesn't bother to enforce the law, because of it. "Oh, I know meth is illegal, but I believe in personal freedom and those methheads haven't hurt anybody yet, so I'm not going to arrest them for anything." "Oh, I know piracy is illegal, and the vast majority of people emulating BotW, or Persona 5, stole the game, but I'm going to let threads talking about it stay open." 

The mods putting rules in an "Official Emulation thread" is like the cops sitting in front of a crackhouse in order to protect the people inside from being shot at, by vigilantes. In reality neither one is upholding the law, and unwittingly being a massive help to anybody that wants to break the law. If either one did what they were supposed to do, there wouldn't be people derailing threads, or pumping bullets into a crackhouse, out of revenge. 



vivster said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

Both are tools that can be used for theft, and in the case of BotW, and Persona 5, they are overwhelmingly being used for theft. A PC comes along somewhere in the process. The code for custom firmware to crack a modern console is written on a PC. Same thing goes for mod chips. 

Digital piracy is not theft. Nothing is taking away from the producer. A pirate would never have paid for it anyway so there is literally no loss to the producer.

In that case, copyright infringement is not theft, since nothing physical was taken away from the copyright holder. But we still have copyright laws for a reason, and we still enforce them. 



Cerebralbore101 said:

Legally it's pretty much unenforcable, unless we want to shut down the internet. But the least we could do is ban talk of emulation of games that are on store shelves, on this message board. But the mods don't care if a game gets stolen or not. Since 30% to 10% of people emulating BotW or Persona 5 paid for a disc, they want to look the other way. When most people who loiter on a certain street corner are selling drugs, the cops don't just go "oh well, a small minority of them are legit so let's ignore the whole thing". They make a point to patrol the area more, and do everything they can to get the drug dealers out of their neighborhood. They make stake outs and do something about it. Now I realize that the mods aren't cops, and that they have no bussiness arresting people, but at the very least they should ban talk of certain games in emulation threads. They should be a nuisance to anybody that is just using the thread as a cover for piracy. 

The mods on these forums are like a police officer that thinks all drugs should be legal, and doesn't bother to enforce the law, because of it. "Oh, I know meth is illegal, but I believe in personal freedom and those methheads haven't hurt anybody yet, so I'm not going to arrest them for anything." "Oh, I know piracy is illegal, and the vast majority of people emulating BotW, or Persona 5, stole the game, but I'm going to let threads talking about it stay open." 

The mods putting rules in an "Official Emulation thread" is like the cops sitting in front of a crackhouse in order to protect the people inside from being shot at. In reality neither one is upholding the law, and unwittingly being a massive help to anybody that wants to break the law. 

The mods are doing their task by banning links to pirated copies of games, so you don't have to worry about that. What you're proposing is akin to making it illegal to talk about illegal drugs.



Cerebralbore101 said:
vivster said:

Digital piracy is not theft. Nothing is taking away from the producer. A pirate would never have paid for it anyway so there is literally no loss to the producer.

In that case, copyright infringement is not theft, since nothing physical was taken away from the copyright holder. But we still have copyright laws for a reason, and we still enforce them. 

Copyright laws count only if you monetize copyrighted content. And then there is still fair use where you are allowed to take copyright content and use it to make money. Copyright laws are outdated and need to be updated anyway.

The laws don't apply to strictly personal use.



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