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Forums - Sony - A Partial Answer Behind Why Some PS3 Games Need to Install

Sqrl said:
FYI - The diameter of the data holding section of a DVD is 116mm outer and 44mm inner. This means that the total area for data storage is aprox 36,200mm². Of that area ~15,680mm² is in the outer 1/3rd of the disc where it spins the fastest. In other words aprox 43.3% of the data is available at the highest speeds.


Your basic argument is true, but the way it is worded gives something of a false impression. You make it sound as though 43.3% of the data will be read at the fastest speed, which is obviously not the case. It is true that the mean average speed will be higher than the median though.

Data can be pulled from a 12x DVD at a Constant Angular Velocity faster than it can from a 2x BD at Constant Linear Velocity, but the 360's drive can only read dual-layer discs at 8x, giving the advantage to the PS3's BD drive. The DVD drive's top speed will always be higher than the BD drive's though, so both systems have their advantages and disadvantages.



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Reasonable said:
I'd look at this another way. Devs have always grumbled at lack of HDD on 360. While they've gumbled about Cell etc. too they've always praised HDD on PS3.

Developers like idea of installing. The bottom line is that most would seem to se an install as the best option for performance (over streaming from physical media). With PS3 as Sony does not require them to make installs optional or set a limit of how much can be installed, they are free to take the install option if they want, avoid having to optimise data storage on the disk and claim faster load times. Sound like DMC4 on PS3 anyone?

For DMC4 on 360 they had to stream as the console denied them the install option. I have no doubt looking at Uncharted that DMC4 could run without install on PS3 as well, assuming the data was optimised on the BR Disk, with only fairly minor slowdown of loads (probably in line with 360).

Many see a console game as being plug and play - so using installs on PS3 has not been overall popular with gamers. And the HDD in PS3 is too small to cater to a lot of 5 to 6 GB installs. So I do see a problem here. It's not PS3 specifically (as fanboys would like to target) so much as developers having a choice that suits them and taking it.

I think Sony needs to set an upper limit on installs or even set a locked limit for temporary caches - i.e. the OS keeps say 2GB (should be plenty for most games) free for games to cache to as you play them then deletes cache when you stop playing - either that or admit that there's probably little real cost (given HDD prices today) jumping the standard HDD up to 120 GB and offering consumers with older HDDs a trade in.



 Your name suite you. I always like what you have to say.

I disagree with what I bolded. I would prefer the consumer limit it, as in give the developer the freedom to use so much disk space, that no one buys the game if they so choose.

I always opt for the option that gives me the best game, as apposed to the option that saves me the most money. This option would someday require me to buy a bigger hard drive, yet allow more games to end up on faster media. To me, a good thing.



that really does suck being "forced" to install.

I have a 60 gig and i think i only have 40 gigs left, and that includes 0 installs. A bunch of installs would go through my free space like apple juice through your system.



Played_Out said:
Sqrl said:
FYI - The diameter of the data holding section of a DVD is 116mm outer and 44mm inner. This means that the total area for data storage is aprox 36,200mm². Of that area ~15,680mm² is in the outer 1/3rd of the disc where it spins the fastest. In other words aprox 43.3% of the data is available at the highest speeds.


Your basic argument is true, but the way it is worded gives something of a false impression. You make it sound as though 43.3% of the data will be read at the fastest speed, which is obviously not the case. It is true that the mean average speed will be higher than the median though.

Data can be pulled from a 12x DVD at a Constant Angular Velocity faster than it can from a 2x BD at Constant Linear Velocity, but the 360's drive can only read dual-layer discs at 8x, giving the advantage to the PS3's BD drive. The DVD drive's top speed will always be higher than the BD drive's though, so both systems have their advantages and disadvantages.


I know what you're getting at but I said the highest speedS, as in plural. No offense to our less technically inclined readers but frankly the people who wouldn't grasp this are the ones whose eyes would likely glaze over when they read the word "diameter". It should be fairly obvious to everyone else.

The larger amounts of data in the outer tracks is true of both Blu-Ray and DVD so I really wasn't trying to say one had an advantage over the other. I was actually driving at the fact that with some planning of where data is to go on the disc they can put assets that need to be loaded quickly on the outer edges and assets that aren't going to be loaded under time constraints towards the inner edges. They've been doing this with DVDs in games for years to combat this exact problem (ie load times).



To Each Man, Responsibility

I like the idea of installing games, because when it comes down to hard drives will always be faster than optical drives and that's a fact.
So it doesn't matter how well the data structure has been optimised on the disc, it still can't beat having the data stored on the hard drive.
I'm all for the simply non user interactive installs the PS3 games have, pop the disc in and let the game install it's self, no were near as convoluted as PC installs and hella faster too.



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what I think would be cool is have every PS3 game give you one of four options when you put the game in regarding HDD installations.

(1) No install: the game is simply streamed from thedisc.

(2) Partial install: Like most games (Warhawk, Motorstorm, etc,) a smal amount of data is installed, but it doesn;t really have much of an impact beyond allowing the game to be played if th disc is ejected during gameplay.

(3) Full install: A large amount of data is taken off the disc in the background during the first few minutes (like Uncharted)

(4) Total install. All the data on the disc is loaded onto the HDD in a temporary file that will automatically if it is not used for a certain amount of time. (say, 48-72 hours or so). obviously, the system would check to make sure the HDD as enough space before enabling this option.

Not that I think Sony will do this (I'm sure at least the 1st and 4th options would be possible without devs having to do anything) but I would really like it if they did.



Not trying to be a fanboy. Of course, it's hard when you own the best console eve... dang it