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Forums - Gaming - VGC Weapon Durability MEGA Thread

Also, I find it odd that people like a durability system where you can repair. Why like this? What does it accomplish other than having to use an item to repair your shit? How is that fun gameplay? The Breath system at least does something, by forcing you to try new weapons and use a variety of strategies beyond run in and bash everything.



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archer9234 said:
kljesta64 said:

in what way is it lazy ? 

It's a game mechanic that is different, for each person. Example. Minecraft has a durability and food system. I don't find it annoying one bit. Why? Because it isn't fast, hounding you, or causing you to stop what you're working on. Zelda causes a lot of the issues, I hate. Weapons break from a fight, open a chest. Crap items. I either continue. Or waste my time, on a reload. Because, the game wasted my time, on a worthless fight. Finding diamonds is annoying as hell, in Minecraft. But, I find it more satisfying. Because the diamond armor, and weapons, last the longest. With Zelda. Things break in x amount of hits. Even the best weapons, break fast. So it's more often easier to find a cheese tactic. And stick to it. I don't bother to ugprade my hearts. Intil my Stamina bar is maxed. It's easier to just reload. Than to deal with the statmina limitations. That's not a good designed game. 

Another reason why this is a bigger problem. Is the same issue RE 0-3 fans. Have towards RE 4-6. BOTW changed thesystem. It wasn't gradual. It hit you. So the annoying item breaks, are hated more. Because people are like: This worked better the old way. Or I liked the item system, the old way. As for this being more "rewarding". I got that from past Zelda games, just fine. I loved unlocking the big goron sword. Was it useful? No. I ignored it. But, I have it. And it counts towards my 100%. How about adapt this logic, in real life. You own a 2001 digital camera. And get a 2017 one. The 2017 one breaks, after 5 uses. Are you happy to go back to the 2001 one, yes or no. Simple question.

guiduc said:

It forces you to manage your inventory wayyyyyy more cleverly. Weapon durability makes you smarter

No. What it really does. Is make you find the best exploit way, to beat the game. By avoiding fights. Looking at walkthrough's. So you know what to not bother with. All because you don't want to break your items. Or just rush threw the game. Because some, people aren't having fun. It doesn't encourage you to explore. It encourages you to go around.

But if you avoid fights, you'll miss out on necessary materials to upgrade your gear. And even on buying special gear with monster parts.



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irstupid said:
Johnw1104 said:

The thing is I'll fully recognize that it's unfair and unreasonable to dismiss the preferences of others, and I do try to remind myself of that constantly. My point, I think, is that this discussion has been blown so far out of proportion as people have fixed on it as the primary criticism of the new Zelda game.

I really think it's more impatience than anything, as it ceases to be a problem after only a few hours into the game, and where I'm at I routinely have to leave behind awesome weapons despite a drastically expanded inventory as I always have a full stock of weapons and, as you improve, the gear continues to scale along with you (lately I've been getting ++ items that do absurd damage).

As someone who probably gets more sentimentally attached to in-game items than 99% of people (you should really see my banks from WoW, I still have every set ever, my first epic, my original gear etc lol) I understand that notion of wanting to keep an item. The breaking weapons are one of the driving forces of the game though, keeping you hunting for more gear and such.

To me, there's one improvement that could be made: very rare items that are quite strong but, while still breaking eventually, can be repaired at great expense. A this point we do have reward items that can be replaced, but they're so weak that they're not worth carrying.

Either way, it's hardly an issue, but the way it's being discussed it's as if it's a game breaking feature.

Also, for the record, I certainly don't think this is a perfect game. Heck, I made a thread about it yesterday lol:
http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=226761&page=1

The unique weapons are not bad. If you notice spears are like 30 at highest damage, and the unique is like 27 or something. The greatsword weapon is like 60 and that fits in line with high end greatswords. And so on. They aren't OP, but they are not underpowered.

You might not have had the gear scaled high enough for you yet, but as of right now (and there's some potential spoilers about weapons here so some may which to stop reading) I've completed all of the dungeons, received that gear and such, and don't bother carrying any of them. They are indeed remarkably weak compared to the stuff I come across at just about every camp, and while I tried to hang on to them just because it was neat I just didn't find it was worth it. I think the last thing to go was the Gerudo shield... unfortunately, it too just doesn't measure up.

Also, I had a number of these items long ago and even then they sucked. The only thing that's decent is the Master Sword, but yet again I generally have a whole assortment of 1h weapons that are superior as it's really only impressive against dungeon bosses and such where its damage doubles.



Areym said:
JakDaSnack said:

There isn't any hand holding in Zelda, you wouldn't know you could do those things unless you experimented.  Also after beating particularly hard groups, it's possible to get a really op weapon early on.  If durability wasn't a thing, that op weapon might make the game too easy.  

I would not considering showing off a mechanic with a small textbox or animated video/image hand holding (assuming not even those things are shown on a new mechanic)

Also, that weapon would not be available so early IF NOT for the weapons being so frail. Otherwise, that would be a god-awful balance issue.

 

If you somewhat follow a linear path for the first hour you do get tutorials.

1. The plateau has teh tutorial shrines to teach you each of the tools.

2. The old man teaches you about instant travel

3. The old man makes you talk to the goddess statue and thus you learn how to upgrade hearts/stamina

4. The old man makes you climb up the temple of time, basically showing you that you can climb anything (if you haven't already) and then leaves you with paraglider to show jumping and gliding off.

5. The old man tells you to head to kakariko village and points in direction. On the way near village you find and learn what the seeds are for.

6. In Kakariko village there is someone that teaches you about locking on, sneak attacks, and other combat stuff.

7. There is a little girl in the village that her quests is basically teaching you how to mix ingredients together for food.

Then as mentioned, the tips in the loading screens tell you things like shield surfing and other things.

But at that point you can easily then run off on your own anywhere. I mean heck, the main quest you get in the village is like "go to these four points which are in teh foru corners of the map. Not telling you which order, so feel free to go wherever then.



archer9234 said:
JakDaSnack said:

You might find out you can do things like shield surfing via NPC's or via tips during the load screen.  But for the most part they encourage discovery.  I'm not sure what your point was with the second sentence, but I took it as a great game design.  I'm able to get end game weapons early on if I try out new things, but it doesn't break the game because I can only use it for a few fights.  Later on these weapons are common, but early on it feels like a massive accomplishment.  I love this aspect of Zelda, but I guess that's just a preference.

Yes. That's the thing. I don't find them balanced, because of that. They break too easily. I don't care about a single weapon I get. I just look at the number. And understand the basic weaknesses. Counter them. Move on. They're disposable items. I don't care about nothing. That's the problem. Makes Link less of a person. More of an managing item box.

The best comparison I've seen, was someone in this thread likened the weapons in Zelda to ammo.  Which is a perfect comparison, in other games if I run out of ammo of a particular weapon and have to drop the weapons, I don't feel like it makes the character any less of a person, I just use other tactics and move on.  You can still collect gear, and personalize it with colors, so the personality is there.  Frankly, I just don't see it as an issue, if anything I see it as beneficial.  But I don't mind games with durability, nor do I mind games without it.



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Johnw1104 said:
irstupid said:

The unique weapons are not bad. If you notice spears are like 30 at highest damage, and the unique is like 27 or something. The greatsword weapon is like 60 and that fits in line with high end greatswords. And so on. They aren't OP, but they are not underpowered.

You might not have had the gear scaled high enough for you yet, but as of right now (and there's some potential spoilers about weapons here so some may which to stop reading) I've completed all of the dungeons, received that gear and such, and don't bother carrying any of them. They are indeed remarkably weak compared to the stuff I come across at just about every camp, and while I tried to hang on to them just because it was neat I just didn't find it was worth it. I think the last thing to go was the Gerudo shield... unfortunately, it too just doesn't measure up.

Also, I had a number of these items long ago and even then they sucked. The only thing that's decent is the Master Sword, but yet again I generally have a whole assortment of 1h weapons that are superior as it's really only impressive against dungeon bosses and such where its damage doubles.

I have Master Sword and done 3 divine beasts. I've also gone to Hyrule Castle multiple times and looted stuff. Don't know the gurudu's shield stats off head you get, but the one I found in hyrule castle is 70, which i'm sure is higher, not ot mention Hylian shields stats. Is her's wooden? That would be huge benefit. Tough to find good wooden shields. Either way, shields I switch all the time for asthetic or weather reasons, due to lasting forever and seeiming to do same thing, they block.

But I found some really good halberds in the castle and they are I think only 27 power. What is Zora's 23? It's very feasable.

The sword I don't know it's power, but the royal guards swords in castle are only like 30 power. 1 handed aren't that strong.

The 2 handed weapons you can find are like 65 or something if I recal, and the Goron one is 60.

So yes, if your powergaming or stat maxing they aren't the best. But they hold up to competition. Unless you are comparing to the rarer finds of +extra damage on top. But these are a guaranteed get. Others you are on a RNG basically. You don't know if that camp will get you good stuff or crap. If that chest will get you fire arrows or a weapon you want.

Mine are currently sitting in my house, since I'm saving up my diamonds for something else at moment, but otherwise I love using them. The boulder crusher dominates when fighting like Stone Talis's. But if I wasn't saving diamonds I woudl carry them and then if ever in area of said town go and replace the most likely broken weapon. Besides, their looks are pretty sweet.

I do though wish you could use the great fairy to do stuff with weapons. You know for each for upgrades you choose either +damage, +durability, +critical, ect to the various weapon bonuses out there. That lets people go all out on durability, or make a super powerful weapon that is very britle, ect. Let them choose.



Johnw1104 said:
Areym said:

I would not considering showing off a mechanic with a small textbox or animated video/image hand holding (assuming not even those things are shown on a new mechanic)

Also, that weapon would not be available so early IF NOT for the weapons being so frail. Otherwise, that would be a god-awful balance issue.

That's your opinion and you're still being dismissive despite recognizing how it's unreasonable to do so. I agree that it isn't the make-or-break thing for the game, but it can be a reasonable annoyance. Even Sterling recommended the game, it's not like he dropped it completely or deemed it unplayable. In fact, I have not read a single post where somebody stopped playing the game entirely because of the durability of the weapons.

I'm not dismissing the criticism itself, I'm saying that it in no way deserves the kind of attention it's getting (to the point that a thread to condense all related threads had to be made).

Early on the clear criticism that likewise was probably receiving too much attention (though it also is a valid criticism) were the frame rates, and no one was bothered by the weapon durability enough to make an issue of it. Now, with (primarily) one well known reviewer voicing his disdain for the durability system (despite essentially admiting in the review that he must not have played very far as he couldn't speak to the durability of better late game weapons), suddenly the entire gaming community is discussing it and throwing words around like "lazy" without thinking through the implications of their complaints (that's one thing Sterling was particularly guilty of in his review on multiple occasions, especially in regards to any progression whatsoever and stamina).

I suppose it's to be expected as it's certainly not something that occurs only with games; I think to basketball where LeBron does impossible things night in and night out, and yet for his entire career people have been looking for flaws to label him with. Whenever we come across something that is essentially a masterpiece, it seems to be almost human nature to focus in on any negatives we can find.

I think these pictures can best explain my position on it:

Zelda: BotW and the Durability Issue
[Diamond with tiny scratch]

How Zelda BotW has been covered over the last couple of days:
[Diamond with tiny scratch with tons of arrows pointed to it]

Based on the discussions and threads I've been seeing, the above examples don't seem far off ;)

I can agree with that, it did get out of hand. It started with simple criticism then a user started a comparison thread and then other people joined in and it became this huge thing, with people making threads for any slight variation. However, it got to this point because  users were defending the design decision just as hard as people who were pointing it out. If it all would have been concentrated into one thread (like this one), it would have been less noticeable. Personally, I only started to chime in when I saw Jim's video, since i watch his stuff regularly anyways, and it opened my eyes to how "different" the durability system was in this game than in TW3 (which i'm currently playing and has some parallels to BotW)

 I also think that something close to perfection will certainly be under more scrutiny than something that's passed off as great



"Trick shot? The trick is NOT to get shot." - Lucian

TheLastStarFighter said:

When you actually play through, weapons do have a fairly unique feel for a while.  When you initially find it, it's usually rare and awesome and you save it for when it's needed.  And that doesn't mean one battle, you can usually use a good weapon for several major battles.  And by then you are probably moving along to the point where a newer, better weapon is coming along.   When you factor in that in between those battles you've probably done a bunch of exploring, found a town, done a shrine trial or two and the pacing is pretty much perfect.  You have your favorite blade, its your baby for a period of time but then its time to move on to something new and special.  So bash it one more time until it explodes over a moblin's head and move on.  It's very well done.

Like I said, I didn't play the game, so that sense is lost on me. I have no means to gauge something like that, yet. xD

 

irstupid said:

But this is Zelda. There is only one real improtant weapon, and that is the Master Sword.  The very fact that as you said all the other items lose their identity makes the master sword that much more iconic in the game.

You don't want to make a game where the ultimate weapon becomes outshined by others. That always bugged me in RPG's where in the main story you get hinted at about this ultimate weapon, and it is the weapon that is on the coverart, or has huge story significance as the ultimate weapon, ect. Yet you can go to some optional dungeon or boss fight that gives you weapons that dwarf that one. Or do some colloseum fighting and get rewarded with some insane sword. WTF are these people doing with a weapon like that. Always worrying about like MMO problems of endgame or whateve ryou call it brings this about.

This Zelda solves that problem, by not having essentially an endgame. YOu start the game out wiht final quest. Head to Hyrule Castle, beat Ganon. It doesn't tell you to get master sword or anything else.  It's essentially engame the instant you leave the plateau. You can head to the final boss if you want, or start doing optional stuff to beef up, max out, 100% complete, whateve rou want to call it. You know basically the point you reach in a typical RPG where they say "NO turning back point" where you can head to fight final boss and beat game or go off and do all things you missed, side quests, optional bosses/dungeons, ect to power up, level up, explore world, 100%, ect. BotW is just basically in this endgame point the whoel game. And even heading to hyrule castle you can turn back whenever you want. I have a few times now gone and cleared out a few more rooms each time exploring, looting, reading, memories, ect. Not going to go see Ganon yet though.

The problem with the Master Sword, as far as I know and have been told, is that it in essence due to its "worn-out" effect, we go back to the cycle of just moving around with the weaponry you have. Sure, having it unlimited breaks the flow of the game, but the solution just goes back to what I said; if the game constantly forbids you from using the Master Sword in time frames, then the Master Sword also loses identity. Isn't this weapon also...missable? (I haven't played, so I don't really know) Not saying missable weapons aren't deemed special, but there's even that. This sword is nothing special outside not breaking, because most of the time you'll go back to the usual weapon cycle. It does have personality, but the game doesn't give that much respect to it, nor makes it that big of a deal because it doesn't really become such a thing. I don't think Master Sword is the main weapon of anyone in this game due to its limitation, either.

It's funny that you mention Master Sword being all this iconic, when it's not that unusual in Zelda to have a weapon that outshines it. Ocarina of Time, for example, offered the Biggoron's Sword as a reward for an elaborated sidequest, which was a superior weapon to Master Sword in range and damage.



What weapons can you keep forever? Is the master sword the only one?



Random_Matt said:
What weapons can you keep forever? Is the master sword the only one?

There are several you can keep forever, but you need to get them fixed at times.

It is possible to store some unique items in a certain place.

You can upgrade your inventory slots too - there's a certain collectable tied to that.



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