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Forums - Gaming - Games that ruined entire franchises

Vini256 on 28 January 2017

Anything with "Plants vs. Zombies" in it after the original game imo. I don't want third-person shooters or crappy mobile games filled with microtransactions, why is it so hard to just make a game like the first one with 3D graphics?

Edit: Oh, add The Sims 4 to the list too, such a bland game compared to the previous ones...



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Barkley on 28 January 2017
Qwark said:
Rayman 3

What! I think Rayman 3 is a good game. T_T

flashfire926 said:
Crash Bandicoot: The wrath of Cortex
Need for Speed: rivals
Pokemon Black/White

I have to disagree Wrath of Cortex ruined the franchise, there was still fun to be had out of Wrath/Twinsanity, no where near the level of the PS1 games but still enjoyable to an extent. Crash of the Titans marked the death to me.

I Also enjoyed Need for Speed Rivals... sure it was no underground or Most Wanted (the original) but it was a good game and certainly better then the other NFS games you listed.

Also I thought Black/White was way better then Diamond/Pearl. xD

 

SSX: On Tour

Micromachines (ps2)

Mario Party 9

Super Paper Mario

Empire Earth 2

Fifa Street (ps3)

Raving Rabbids TV Party

Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 (If not 3, World certainly did it.)

NSMB 2 (Rinse, Recycle and repeat, DS was great, Wii added multiplayer, but by the third time they tried to milk the same concept and assets it was tiresome. Then they had the balls to do it a 4th time on WiiU.)

 



Barkley on 28 January 2017
axumblade said:
bananaking21 said:
red alert 3....

Ugh. I came in here to say Assassin's Creed 3 but then I read this and found the real winner. 

Well Red Alert 3 may have been a misstep but I didn't think it was that bad, but Command and Conquer 4 was the fucking rapture.



SegataSanshiro on 28 January 2017
GOWTLOZ said:
SegataSanshiro said:

ROFL here we go U JUS H8 it cuz hair...

 

That's a huge post but here are some basic points (a top 10 list if you will):

*No hard lock in the game which means you are at the mercy of the game engine when it comes to it choosing your target for you. This leads to less precise combat as sometimes you may not want to be attacking the enemy that is targetted by the game. Compared to other soft lock on games like Ninja Gaiden, this still feels less precise especially when it comes to fighting aerial enemies.

*Color coated enemies is a huge design problem. DMC games are about combat freedom not about "key in hole" combat design. Restriction of weapon sets leads to boring encounters against these colored enemies because your overall moveset is highly limited so you just smash on the few moves of the few weapons you can use.

*Aerial combat is extremely "dumbed down", lenient and just not all that fun. This is because of a number of reasons mostly due to no big gravity on demon pulls, no gravity when you use enemy step cancels, less gravity on pretty much all aerial moves and just in general floaty air combat. This leads to a situation where staying in the air and comboing is not that satisfying or challenging unlike previous games where you had to keep attacking in rapid succession and keep doing enemy steps in the air to keep both yourself and the enemy in the air in a combo.

*A lot of attacks and moves have disjointed hit boxes. What that means is that the attack hit box of a move extends much further than the visual animation of the move. This is mostly to cover up the lack of lock on play because no matter where you swing you are bound to attack someone. This leads into a more "Dynasty Warriors" style game play where you just keep attacking and you will keep hitting enemies as they swarm you. The weapons are also designed around this with stuff like Aquila and Osiris allow for big crowd control. There is just less precision all around in this design and it's not really what DMC is about... most people play GoW and Dynasty Warriors if they want that type of game play.

*Most bosses are just really easy or just plain brain dead. Even at the highest difficulty they do not provide a remotely challenging experience. DMC games are all about the high end boss fights and this game did not deliver on that front at all.

*Style system is generally pretty broken. While since launch they have greatly improved it, it's still not where it should be. The basic formula of the style system is that high damage = high style gain. This essentially encourages you to farm style points by just going for Demon Dodges which boosts your attack damage for all weapons allowing you to kill faster while getting more style points. Style meter isn't just about killing stuff it's about doing it with STYLE. In previous DMC games you would have moves that would do minimal damage but raised your style meter high so they were worth going for... not here you just go for big damage and the game will sort it out for you. The end of mission ranking style points is also pretty broken, you can die many times and still get SSS rank which to me is just ridiculous. Basically getting SSS's in this game is not that challenging and just does not give you the same satisfaction... the game gives you SSS like it gives you red orbs.

*Game is obviously not balanced around 60FPS game play, it's balanced around 30FPS. This means that when you do play it at a higher frame rate the game becomes even easier when it comes to dodging enemies and reacting to stuff because they had to have very obvious tell signs on stuff otherwise they would be hard to scout in a 30FPS game. This just leads to a slower paced game than before both in reacting to enemy attacks and doing your own combos as every thing is so drawn out and forced to be balanced for that low framerate.

*It generally is not all that responsive when compared to previous DMC games. A lot of attacks just have a ton of recovery for no real reason and have a high start up while having late times for cancelling out. This feels more apparent when you compare playing with Rebellion in this game with playing Rebellion in a previous DMC game. Stuff like when you can jump/roll out of attacks. I know some of it is for balance reasons but quite a few of the stuff just really limits your options and responses in situation. Some moves are just not animated all that fast or crisp like Rainstorm which takes a lot to start up and then has a shit ton of active frames for no real reason.

*Having two buttons dedicated to Dodge button is a poor design choice. That extra button could be used for more combat options. This combined with two buttons for attacking when before due to lock on you do stuff like Stinger/Hightime on all one button leads into "more buttons that do less than before". There is also no Taunt in this game which was actually a cool mechanic to have in the game and is removed for no real reason. It's poor optimization of the controller due to a lack of lock on.

*Devil Trigger itself is lazy as hell and quite frankly boring. It's just a Quicksilver you can use a couple times in a mission that also gives you damage boost. It's not that over powered because it takes a while to build up... it's just really boring. In previous DMC games you would get DT meter frequently and while in DT you had access to more moves and more interesting mechanics. It was a constant battle of meter management in previous DMC games especially when Taunting was involved but here there is no management with DT at all... it's just a boring power up that hardly adds anything to the game.

1. That is fixed in the Definitive Edition on PS4 and Xbox One. But DMC Devil May Cry's style of combat manouvre is a little different tha previous Devil May Cry games as you said and its more about crowd control than fighting singular enemies which it does do well with the arsenal of weapons you have. A different style of Devil May Cry that is a mixture of God of War's crowd control fighting style and Devil May Cry's fighting game like combo centric battle system. Yes the game's new style still allows a variety of creative combos by the player which is what I look for in a Devil May Cry game. Its a reboot so you shouldn't expect the exact same style of game.

2. Yes colour coated enemies reduced that combo centric fighting system to a more simple one which was a problem. I didn't say the game is devoid of any problems but you can gloss over this relatively minor annoyance because of the way it is done. Red and blue colour coated enemies appearing at the same time forced you to change your fighting style on the fly while dealing with them. It required you to strategise and required better adaptation during a battle.

3. Aerial combat is easier than in previous games because it takes a differnt approach to aerial combat. Its less about staying in the air and more about being as efficient as you can be in the air as enemies are weaker when juggling them and you have to try to stay in the air to defeat them as quickly as you can and try to slam them hard when coming back to the ground. A different approach and less challenging doesn't make it worse. I don't agree with difficulty being the only measure of how good a games mechanics are, if that was true Dark SOuls would have the best mechanics in video games but it doesn't have as good combat mechanics as any of the huge hack and slash games.

4. Style system is easier than most Devil May Cry games but not all. Its definitely more difficult and better compared to the first Devil May Cry game where you could mas buttons to get an S in combat. Here you have to do a variety of combos with different weapons like Devil May Cry 3. Sure Devil May Cry 3 has better combat but I never said that wasn't the case either and in terms of style system, both are really good.

5. Any game with combat is easier when playing at higher framerates. As for boss battles I agree, those were weak in DMC Devil May Cry. The Vergil one was pretty good and so was the Ninja enemy that was not a boss but a very technical battle.

6. You didn't menhtion how the camera in DMC Devil May Cry is better than every other Devil May Cry games. Some Devil May Cry games have had horrible cameras that have negatively affected the combat. In Devil May Cry the boss fight with Griffon was one of the worst boss fights in any game I've played because you couldn't even see where he was due to the camera which was centred on the ship instead of him. Also all the platforming segments in that game and many normal fights were poor due to the camera. Same with Devil May Cry 2 and while the sequels were better they still had issues. This game did not have camera issues. And platforming is also a part of the game and I am someone who looks at the overall quality of the product as well and that is why DMC Devil May Cry is the best Devil May Cry game.

It's quite easy (and lazy) to dismiss an entire fanbase for being irrational and illogical. As time has passed since the announcement, release, and re-release ofDmC, you'll find that DMC fan concerns were warranted and justified, whereas there is a contingent of people who will insist on vilifying the DMC fanbase simply for fighting for something they care about. "White hair lol" wasn't a point of discussion a year after the reveal.

The most reductive and ignorant people will attribute the distaste of DmC Dante to "DMC fans hate change." As with any fanbase, there will be a subset that will despise any change to their sacred formula, but the DMC series as a whole is no stranger to change.Ironically, the hardcore DMC fanbase might be one of the most tolerant of change from game to game. The character focus has always shifted gears significantly from title to title. Every sequel featured a dramaticchange, usually in character and scope. What was not compromised, however, was the attempt to hone and deepen the gameplay with each iteration. DmC was never advertised as such. In fact, DmC was advertised as an attempt to reach a casual demographic with a gritty urban western aesthetic at the expense of certain areas of gameplay depth.

Most hardcore DMC fans played DmC. Played it to death. Played it more than most people defending it. It's why we know there were problems with the original release. It's why we had issues with 30fps, no lock on, color coded enemies, broken devil trigger, broken damage values, broken style meter, and all around poor boss design. It's also why DmCDE changed all of these things. Because Ninja Theory recognized that all those little whiny fanboys had a point, and understood how to patch some of the glaring holes in their game.

All DMC fans don't universally hate change. They hated the changes that they saw coming throughout the development process because they recognized them, and spoke out against them. And continued to attack the game after release while they experienced those issues first hand. 


But let's take a step back and look strictly at the superficial character design of DmC Dante. To argue that he was just the same as DMC Dante is either disingenuous or blind. DMC Dante was a goofball. Yes, even in DMC1. He was silly, over-the-top, slapstick, and lackadaisical. DmC Dante tries to appeal to a different kind of cool. There's no question that DmC Dante is harsher, cruder, and an anti-establishment bad boy archetype. He's not DMCDante. He may be something you prefer, but he's not the same character. You have to understand that what DmC was proposing was the complete abandonment of a character that fans had grown attached to... not the change of that character, the deletion and subsitution. And while I certainly wouldn't argue that these are objective reasons why DmC is worse than DMC, I would argue that it's a perfectly legitimate reason for someone to not spend their hard earned money on a product that doesn't appeal to them.

The fan reaction to DmC's Dante was one spawned out of fear. The classic series might not have things that you care about, but there was an existing dedicated fanbase that was threatened with the dissolution of the gameplay/story/characters that they loved... all while the series was arguably at its peak gameplaywise (saleswise definitely). And all for the sake of westernization and chasing God of War money. This has been confirmed by Itsuno in postmortem interviews - if DmC sold incredibly well, it would have been the series going forward. It seems that Capcom actually created what is essentially an irreconcilable rift in the fanbase.

It doesn't help that Ninja Theory, Capcom, and games journalists had the audacity to demonize the fanbase as a whole for actually speaking their minds and voting with their wallets. The entire tortured development process wasn't easy for Ninja Theory, but Tameem did no one any favors in how he opted to speak about the fanbase and outright ignore feedback. Thank God not everyone on the development team wasn't as blind as Tameem and certain members of Capcom. Key members and combat designer Rahni Tucker took feedback from the DMC and DmC fanbase to make DmCDE, a vastly vastly improved game all around, because they saw the legitimate concerns and criticisms from fans.

 

As someone who actually knows game design mechanics and does specials on my channel about it. FACT not opimion DmC is a poorly designed game. Something about every moron at IGN doesn't know. So I am done with this because I am right. Also fact is it did kill the series. Sold less than Capcom expected and killed any chance of a DmC sequel. Capcom learnede their lesson and brought back the real Dante in PXZ series.



KingofTrolls on 28 January 2017

Gears of War Judgement



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bananaking21 on 28 January 2017
axumblade said:
bananaking21 said:
red alert 3....

Ugh. I came in here to say Assassin's Creed 3 but then I read this and found the real winner. 

Also, runner-up goes to Plants versus Zombies because I don't understand how they could manage to f*** it up that badly. then again, EA also ruined command and conquer so maybe I shouldn't be surprised...

its just sad. 



Barkley on 28 January 2017
SegataSanshiro said:

As someone who actually knows game design mechanics and does specials on my channel about it. FACT not opimion DmC is a poorly designed game. Something about every moron at IGN doesn't know. So I am done with this because I am right. 

Wow, I just had to take a step back, think about my life a little, then highlight this brief segment of your post.



eyezofnight on 28 January 2017

slient hunter 2



Nogamez on 28 January 2017

I can only think off a couple. Perfect Dark Zero, Banjo kazooie nuts and Bolts and later Turok games.

Oh and im gonna get destroyed but also LoZ WindWaker, yeah I was so hyped for a new Zelda and then they revealed this celshaded game. I actually skipped out on nintendo for two gens following that. Recently replayed Wiindwaker HD and it's fantastic.



Louie_86 on 28 January 2017

Star Fox Zero easily ruined Star Fox for me and that'd be my definitive first choice answer for this question.

Castlevania Lords of shadows 2 ruined Castlevania for me and would be my definitive second choice answer for this question. Coming from the very good game that was LOS1, this game was dreadful and painful. Never could finish it. And there hasnt been an announcement for a new Castlevania ever since, which is a shame considering how lasting and loved this franchise is.

Duke Nukem Forever, tho I wouldnt say Duke Nukem is a great franchise to begin with, it was fun, DNF ruined that.

Silent Hill Book of memories, tho SH is an up and down franchise.

I'd say FF13 ruined the franchise for a lot of years, coming from the fantastic game that was FF12. But then it came back with FF14 and FF15 to a lesser degree. So, you know, theres always hope. Similar to how RE is getting back on its feet with RE7 coming from the terrible RE6.