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Forums - Gaming - If DS was a fluke where's the "inevitable" handheld decline?

tak13 said:
Kerotan said:
DS + PSP >>>>>>>>>> 3DS + VITA

And now it looks like they are no longer releasing dedicated handheld consoles. Sony aren't releasing anything in that regard either.

WII+PS3+XB360 >>>>>>> PS4+XB1+WIIU  So what? Do you like that?  Personally not, I can't come into conclusions from collating an irregularly huge gen with a more normal one...

This  is unfair comparison ( and sometimes  malevolent ) , also you have posted it so many times, enough! You will make me to quote what you answer  to those who claim that playstation is dead in Japan.  Your reasoning about that case could be used for this too, because that case chimes to considerable a extend with this case.

3DS is down compared to gba too, you could just mention this instead of the unfair ds/3d comparison, but of course the discrepancy of 3ds and gba isn't big so that doesn't float your boat.

 

By the way, perhaps even PS2+XB+GC >>>>>>> PS4+XB1+wiiu howbeit even that comparison is unfair because PS2 had a lot of non hardcore gamers (like wii and xbox 360 )

P.s

I'm waiting for you to celebrate together the impressive sales of 3ds for its 6th year and its huge yoy increase  in november npd! I guess you are like me, being happy for every success in the indursty? Eh?

Lol huge YOY increase for 3DS and the ps4 still smokes it.  Especially WW.  just shows again how much comsoles have stayed strong while handhelds fade away.  A massive phenomenon like pokemon go and it still has no chance.  

 

You can bring up Wii + ps3 + 360 all you want but the reality is Nintendo have decline massively Wii - Wii U while Microsoft + Sony are actually doing better so far this gen combined.  The HD consoles from last gen live on.  The motion control crowd have moved on.  So in terms of dedicated console gamers the market is very healthy. 



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tak13 said:
Conina said:

It also means thicker device or less battery life.

the case of the second display takes space which could be used for a higher capacity battery and the second display need additional power from the battery.

    

  Is that thicker than switch handheld device?

As for the battery thing, I think that  I can't  confute your claimings...

  

Are you serious? This thing is a 3D-model, they can make it as thick or thin as they want without factoring in battery capacity, power drain, performance, weight or cooling.



@Shadow1980: Great breakdown! Really enjoyed it. The problem I see (not necessarily with your post), is the focus on hardware. What you really should be looking at (and analyse) is the software. What software was on the system and how did it do. When you look at the DS, it had - just like PS2 - in the end pretty much everything imaginable (both also had a number or multiple purchases per owner). PSP did extremely well, but Japan was an anomaly for it as well, where there was the Monster Hunter phenomenon.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

I don't it's fair to compare ancient generations' sales to the current one. You have to remember that gaming wasn't as mainstream back then on top of being accessible in fewer countries.



Shadow1980 said:

Not once has anyone attempted to break things down by region in this thread. This is very important, as global sales never, ever tell us the whole story. For example, saying "The 3DS will not outsell the GBA" is not entirely true, nor does it explain why.

So, let's assess the situation by region. Here's lifetime sales of each Nintendo handheld, with 3DS estimates up to the end of September:


In all but one case, the market share split between NA and Europe was proportionally very similar. That one exception was the GBA. The GBA was a major phenomenon in America. While sales of the GBA declined by nearly identical amounts (47.8% and 46.8%, respectively) in Japan and Europe, the GBA came very close to matching the Game Boy. It sold only 6.5% fewer units, a vastly smaller decline than in Japan and Europe. Why the GBA was disproportionately more popular in America than elsewhere is uncertain. Perhaps Pokemon fever was just that much bigger here than elsewhere. But the fact remains that North America represents nearly half of all GBA sales worldwide. Had the GBA fallen by the same amount in NA, it would have sold only 22-23M.

The DS was a freak of nature, that once-in-a-lifetime system that utterly shatters all sales expectations. It is to handhelds what the PS2 is to home consoles. But the DS was not as strong relatively speaking in Japan as it was elsewhere. While the DS sold over 144% more units than the GBA in Europe, in Japan it sold only 94.6% more. While the DS surpassed the Game Boy in America  and Europe by a considerable about (it sold 32.9% more than the GB in the former and 30% more in the latter), in Japan it just barely edged out the Game Boy. Nevertheless, the DS was a sales phenomenon unlike any other.

As for the 3DS, it has already far surpassed the GBA in Japan. It still stands a good chance of matching the GBA in Europe. The one region where it appears to be struggling is America. At this rate, it may at best sell only 24-25M units in NA. Compared to the GBA this appears downright pitiful, but as mentioned the GBA was vastly, disproportionately successful in America.

Oh, and let's not forget the PSP. It was the first and to date only successful non-Nintendo handheld. It sold at least 20M in the U.S., another 20M in Japan, and 24M in Europe. PlayStation's dominance of Europe may help explain why it did better there than in America and Japan, but the fact that it did well at all was surprising. The next best selling non-Nintendo handhelds are the Vita, which apparently hasn't even crested 15M yet (if VGC is accurate), and the Game Gear, which sold only 10.6M worldwide. That's a massive gap. The PSP's success makes it wholly unique among non-Nintendo handhelds. The fact that it was a contemporary of the DS severely inflated the overall size of the already inflated handheld market, with some 235M units sold between the two.

Given all these facts, what counts as "normal" or "healthy" sales for a handheld? What counts as anomalous? We only have four "generations" of Nintendo handhelds with which to measure this, and only one successful non-Nintendo handheld. That the DS sold more in five years than what the Game Boy did in 12, I don't think we should use that as a measure. It was simply out of the ordinary in every way. Nor should the GBA be used as a point of comparison, either, at least not for global or U.S. sales due to its unusual and massive success in that one market. But that doesn't leave us much to compare anything to besides the Game Boy, and it sold decently for years before spiking with the GB Color and then dying very quickly once the GBA was released. But its 12-year lifespan was vastly longer than any other handheld in history, and longer than most consoles (only the PS2 had a comparable lifetime of mainstream support). So, we have one system that carried the handheld market for the entirety of the 90s, another that was so crazy huge in just one country that nearly half its global sales came from there, and another than managed to pull 150 million units in just seven years, and another one that did uniquely well despite not being made by Nintendo.

You can easily make the case that there is no "normal" in the handheld market, which would mean that talk of a decline is largely unwarranted. The 3DS is pulling numbers that would be considered healthy for any home console. Perhaps that should be our measuring stick. The 3DS is already the #4 system ever in Japan, and will likely pass the PS2 to become #3. That's healthy. It should pull over 20M in Europe, which is good though not mindblowing. It should pull about 25M in NA, putting it ahead of the SNES but behind the PS3. While not remarkable, that's still good. Overall, it should sell somewhere in the 75-80M range globally by time it's discontinued, and that's a damn good lifetime total if I do say so myself. It's not DS good, but "DS good" should never be the measuring stick. The 3DS has done well for itself, as one would expect from a Nintendo handheld.

I'm bowing to you shadow, you outargue many people here with this meticulous, illuminating and principally, unbiased post... Decline to be dead is different than to decline and stabilize to something viable like in the case of PC vs tablets. Also, you concur with me about how unfair is the comparison with ds, some people use it  for a specific reason...

By the way don't be afraid of calling ds an anomaly, generally the 7th gen was an anomaly, especially  for handheld consoles. From no sony handheld console and 81.5m gba ( okay lets say 100m because it was ''replaced'' early, even though fat ds didn't affect its sales, ds lite after two years did it, pokemon emerald was released in 2006 ) to 236m handheld consoles, 154m  and 82m respectively.

They can base anywhere  else if they want their aspect about the alleged death of handheld console and yet the keep repeat this comparison. Yeah I should have predicted that just because PS3 sold 70m less than PS2, the next PS4 would sell less than ps3, and PS5 less than PS4, nice flawed logic.

Also, handheld console market is only Nintendo, when we do comparisons it would be right to make them just with the previous Nintendo handheld consoles, plus not just the global LT sales...Europe, japan e.tc. In addition, collating sales per time period  ( e.g gba three years vs 3ds three years ) by taking into  account the circumstances of each gen,.

Anyway, I want to remind you that GB is two gen handheld console. Few people are recognizng this.

GB and GBC, gbc came after nine years and had its own game library... I'm reiterating myself, but think people, Pokemon silver and gold weren't compatible with gb for example...

Nintendo shouldn't have combined their sales in my opinion!

What If Pokemon sun and Moon were new 3ds exclusives? ;)  Well, the games likely wouldn't sell as much as they would sell if they were compatibe with all models but it would boost a lot the hardware sales because of those who want to play it, upgrading.

3ds sold 15m in 2011, 14.8m in 2012, 12.9m in 2013,  7.63 in 2014, 7.9m in 2015 and is probably going to sell more than 2015 thanks to Pokemon go+Pokemon sun and moon, remarkable stability  since 2014. (  in calendar years  )

None of those who doom  the (ultimately Nintendo HC )  handheld console refer to  the one extremely succesful Nintnedo ( okay Nintendo wasn't directly involved ) mobile game that increased significantly 3ds sales and made the commensurate game in its core exprerience to break records. If Pokemon S/M outsell the pokemon games of DS, what will the say?

P.s  Even if handheld consoles market evaporates completely in the west, Japan will be the reason why  handheld consoles ( ultimately Nintendo HC ) will always exist! 3DS is on tradk to sell 2m there in 2016, only down by 300k , in a market where it has hit almost complete saturation and will probably end up with 25m lt sales there.



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Conina said:
tak13 said:
    

  Is that thicker than switch handheld device?

As for the battery thing, I think that  I can't  confute your claimings...

  

Are you serious? This thing is a 3D-model, they can make it as thick or thin as they want without factoring in battery capacity, power drain, performance, weight or cooling.

Anyway...

Do you like the concept? It's the best thing  in my opinion, satisfying both sides, those who want tablet-like handheld console and those who like clam shell and dual screens ( I'm in them ) .



Kerotan said:
tak13 said:

WII+PS3+XB360 >>>>>>> PS4+XB1+WIIU  So what? Do you like that?  Personally not, I can't come into conclusions from collating an irregularly huge gen with a more normal one...

This  is unfair comparison ( and sometimes  malevolent ) , also you have posted it so many times, enough! You will make me to quote what you answer  to those who claim that playstation is dead in Japan.  Your reasoning about that case could be used for this too, because that case chimes to considerable a extend with this case.

3DS is down compared to gba too, you could just mention this instead of the unfair ds/3d comparison, but of course the discrepancy of 3ds and gba isn't big so that doesn't float your boat.

 

By the way, perhaps even PS2+XB+GC >>>>>>> PS4+XB1+wiiu howbeit even that comparison is unfair because PS2 had a lot of non hardcore gamers (like wii and xbox 360 )

P.s

I'm waiting for you to celebrate together the impressive sales of 3ds for its 6th year and its huge yoy increase  in november npd! I guess you are like me, being happy for every success in the indursty? Eh?

Lol huge YOY increase for 3DS and the ps4 still smokes it.  Especially WW.  just shows again how much comsoles have stayed strong while handhelds fade away.  A massive phenomenon like pokemon go and it still has no chance.  

 

You can bring up Wii + ps3 + 360 all you want but the reality is Nintendo have decline massively Wii - Wii U while Microsoft + Sony are actually doing better so far this gen combined.  The HD consoles from last gen live on.  The motion control crowd have moved on.  So in terms of dedicated console gamers the market is very healthy. 

I would like you to be a little bit lenient with Nintendo and there must be something good! 

Wiii wii wii  decline, I know wii victory acerbated many people, and now with a massive dwindling of nintendo home console with wii u,  is the time for venting the anger .

Personally, I admire PS4 for wiinning this gen by a landside and generally winning.

Also why do  you keep using lol when a negative sentence follows? It's like doing the flagrant/vile thing of delighting in the badthing you describe/the woes of something and you make your post somewhat aggressive/vindictive. i'm just saying it to avoid any  misunderstanding!

  When I'm  writing  a unpleasant thing, I'm doing it friendly, to eschew any possible conflint, regardless if the one who replies to me doesn't appreciate that,  hence I suggest you to do the same.

Ps4 still smokes it? Why not a moderate phrase instead of a triumphalistic one? I forgot you're too much into console wars.  Me, not! Maybe, I'm too sensitive.

What Handheld fade away? ! Say the same thing about playstation  in Japan ( who many call it dead there and you scath them )  instead of exulting every week about its sales and I will at least accept this kind of opinion.

 

Can we stop it, please? ;) Or at least answer me without provoking me because sometimes I have the bad habit of reciprocating.

 

 

 

Xbox one is about to fell below xbox 360 and the kinect time hasn't come yet... Also, if windows central isn't wrong about november npd sales when PS4 had pro release, otherwise go read Ethomaz comments about indursty  on gaf, who's a much bigger sony enthusiast than you.

Lastly, Some have the illussion that  wii was the only console with casual crowd! Ps2  had them before  according to sony, not me and of course xbox 360 thanks to kinect...

P.S

( so if  market in terms of dedicated home console gamers are very healthy, why sony  wants that http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/05/27/sony-looking-to-reach-casual-gamers-with-ps4 )



Shadow1980 said:
tak13 said:

I'm bowing to you shadow, you outargue many people here with this meticulous, illuminating and principally, unbiased post... Decline to be dead is different than to decline and stabilize to something viable like in the case of PC vs tablets. Also, you concur with me about how unfair is the comparison with ds, some people use it  for a specific reason...

By the way don't be afraid of calling ds an anomaly, generally the 7th gen was an anomaly, especially  for handheld consoles. From no sony handheld console and 81.5m gba ( okay lets say 100m because it was ''replaced'' early, even though fat ds didn't affect its sales, ds lite after two years did it, pokemon emerald was released in 2006 ) to 236m handheld consoles, 154m  and 82m respectively.

They can base anywhere  else if they want their aspect about the alleged death of handheld console and yet the keep repeat this comparison. Yeah I should have predicted that just because PS3 sold 70m less than PS2, the next PS4 would sell less than ps3, and PS5 less than PS4, nice flawed logic.

Also, handheld console market is only Nintendo, when we do comparisons it would be right to make them just with the previous Nintendo handheld consoles, plus not just the global LT sales...Europe, japan e.tc. In addition, collating sales per time period  ( e.g gba three years vs 3ds three years ) by taking into  account the circumstances of each gen,.

Anyway, I want to remind you that GB is two gen handheld console. Few people are recognizng this.

GB and GBC, gbc came after nine years and had its own game library... I'm reiterating myself, but think people, Pokemon silver and gold weren't compatible with gb for example...

Nintendo shouldn't have combined their sales in my opinion!

What If Pokemon sun and Moon were new 3ds exclusives? ;)  Well, the games likely wouldn't sell as much as they would sell if they were compatibe with all models but it would boost a lot the hardware sales because of those who want to play it, upgrading.

3ds sold 15m in 2011, 14.8m in 2012, 12.9m in 2013,  7.63 in 2014, 7.9m in 2015 and is probably going to sell more than 2015 thanks to Pokemon go+Pokemon sun and moon, remarkable stability  since 2014. (  in calendar years  )

None of those who doom  the (ultimately Nintendo HC )  handheld console refer to  the one extremely succesful Nintnedo ( okay Nintendo wasn't directly involved ) mobile game that increased significantly 3ds sales and made the commensurate game in its core exprerience to break records. If Pokemon S/M outsell the pokemon games of DS, what will the say?

P.s  Even if handheld consoles market evaporates completely in the west, Japan will be the reason why  handheld consoles ( ultimately Nintendo HC ) will always exist! 3DS is on tradk to sell 2m there in 2016, only down by 300k , in a market where it has hit almost complete saturation and will probably end up with 25m lt sales there.

I'm glad you enjoyed the post.

Re: The Game Boy & GB Color, the reason I combine the two—and probably the reason Nintendo combines them as well—is because the GBC is effectively just an upgraded Game Boy. It has the same Sharp LR35902 CPU, but with a faster maximum clock speed. It also had three times as much total RAM (4x more main RAM, 2x more VRAM). For all intents and purposes, it was just a souped-up Game Boy, no more distinct from the original GB model than the DSi is from the DS or New 3DS is from the regular 3DS or the Pro is from the base model PS4. It wasn't until the GBA that Nintendo had created an entirely new made-from-scratch handheld platform.

This is an astute expanaltion, I have this in my mind too..

However, in case you didn't understand me, my objection lies in the fact that  GBC came nine years after orginal model and had its own brand new vast game library, as I aforesaid Pokemon Gold silver were GBC exclusives.



tak13 said:
Kerotan said:

Lol huge YOY increase for 3DS and the ps4 still smokes it.  Especially WW.  just shows again how much comsoles have stayed strong while handhelds fade away.  A massive phenomenon like pokemon go and it still has no chance.  

 

You can bring up Wii + ps3 + 360 all you want but the reality is Nintendo have decline massively Wii - Wii U while Microsoft + Sony are actually doing better so far this gen combined.  The HD consoles from last gen live on.  The motion control crowd have moved on.  So in terms of dedicated console gamers the market is very healthy. 

I would like you to be a little bit lenient with Nintendo and there must be something good! 

Wiii wii wii  decline, I know wii victory acerbated many people, and now with a massive dwindling of nintendo home console with wii u,  is the time for revenge.

Personally, I admire PS4 for wiinning this gen by a landside and generally winning.

Also why do  you keep using lol when a negative sentence follows? It's like doing the flagrant/vile thing of delighting in the badthing you describe/the woes of something and you make your post somewhat aggressive/vindictive. i'm just saying it to avoid any  misunderstanding!

  When I'm  writing  a unpleasant thing, I'm doing it friendly, to eschew any possible conflint, regardless if the one who replies to me doesn't appreciate that,  hence I suggest you to do the same.

Ps4 still smokes it? Why not a moderate phrase instead of a triumphalistic one? I forgot you're too much into console wars.  Me, not! Maybe, I'm too sensitive.

What Handheld fade away? ! Say the same thing about playstation  in Japan ( who many call it dead there and you scath them )  instead of exulting every week about its sales and I will at least accept this kind of opinion.

 

Can we stop it, please? ;) Or at least answer me without provoking me because sometimes I have the bad habit of reciprocating.

 

 

 

Xbox one is about to fell below xbox 360 and the kinect time hasn't come yet... Also, if windows central isn't wrong about november npd sales when PS4 had pro release, otherwise go read Ethomaz comments about indursty  on gaf, who's a much bigger sony enthusiast than you.

Lastly, Some have the illussion that  wii was the only console with casual crowd! Ps2  had them before  according to sony, not me and of course xbox 360 thanks to kinect...

P.S

( so if  market in terms of dedicated home console gamers are very healthy, why sony  wants that http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/05/27/sony-looking-to-reach-casual-gamers-with-ps4 )

Lol the irony.  Yet again you ask me to not attack/provoke etc you and while doing so you attempt to insult me many times (for example saying I'm too much into the console wars).  

 

And again I'll say I'm not doing any of those things and I'm not bothered by your attacks on me either.  Hence why I refuse to bite.  

 

Now back to the facts.  You bring up ps4 in Japan. Well it's beating it's last gen version the ps3 and it's destroyed the competition (Wii U + xbox).  Sony gotta be happy with Japan.  They've taken it back.  

 

Meanwhile 3DS is massively down on its succesor.  Including software which ain't pretty especially WW. As I said SW is the key here.  People just ain't buying much handheld software these days.  Overall software sales for handhelds the last few years isn't pretty,  especially for third parties.  You can see why they're sticking with consoles,  pc and mobile.  

 

Next gen I fully expect software to decline again.  Straight away there is no vita succesor so you can minus that right off the bat.  Not a good start for the market.  Then we got the Switch.  With the ever growing dominance of mobile gaming I don't expect it to improve over this gens SW and the terminal decline continues imo.  

And yes all had casual crowds for various reasons but the point is the sizable hardcore market is in rude health and Microsoft,  Sony and steam have that on Lockdown. 



Handheld gaming won't die, but it has declined steeply because of mobile gaming. To put it plain and simple cellphones and tablets offer enough entertainment value for the vast majority of children, therefore, the need for a dedicated gaming handheld has diminished significantly in just 10 years time (5 years to be honest).

At this point kids are getting cellphones at 8 years old, some younger, and more than likely those kids have an Android tablet or iPad at an even younger age, and those phones and tablets can do significantly more than handhelds thanks to their robust app stores.

Gaming and software are the strengths of handhelds and will be the only thing that sells them going forward. Nintendo should be fine with the Switch depending on it's price. If it sells in the $249 - $299 I see them doing similar numbers to the 3DS until they get a cheaper model out. I'd say between the 3DS and PSP overall sales.