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Forums - Politics - I would still vote Democrat even if Hillary was the worst human being on earth...

vivster said:
AZWification said:

You can always vote Gary Johnson or Jill Stein...

Too bad in the US that would be the exact same as not voting at all. The two party system there is stupid. Here in Germany no party is safe from elimination. You simply cannot rule the country if you do not have at least 50+% of the votes. And since nowadays even the biggest parties struggle to reach even 30% of the votes a single vote has a lot more power because even if there is one strongest party it cannot rule without building a succesful coalition.

Try to envision the same system for the US. Since people vote for 3rd parties and usually the winning party does not get 50% of the votes it would have to work together with one of the smaller parties. That would give people the power to make a difference by voting a 3rd party who now also has the chance to take part in the government.

The problem with the US system isn't that it's a "two party" system, it's the fact that the winner takes all. People vote in gerrymandered blocs called "districts" here, which are drawn up by the majority party in the legislature in most states, blatantly to advantage their side and deny all representation to the opposing party, after the census is counted and Congressional votes redistributed. Arizona has thankfully begun the process of reforming districting to eliminate gerrymandering and hopefully more states will follow suit.

When someone gets past the posts first, all other votes are simply thrown away. Oklahoma is one of the most Republican states in the US, but still has a Democratic population of 40%. Yet, it has 100% Republican representation in Congress and its 7 electoral votes have a 100% chance of going to Donald Trump. 40% of Oklahoma voters are effectively disenfranchised. The same situation exists in Oklahoma's Democratic counterpart, Massachusetts, with regards to Republicans living there.

That said, there is one advantage to the US system: it keeps fringe parties like the Communists and the American Nazi Party out of the government.  They can try infiltrating the Democrats and the Republicans, but that's also extremely difficult.



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I voted for the cunt. I'd rather vote for a cunt than a douchebag.



Torillian said:
Landguy said:

It's both.  The Presidential position itself is a figurehead for the whole country and their party.  If the person is a piece of garbage, then you are chooing to have that person personally reflect you to the rest of the world.  If you believe that every Democrat is a crooked liar who doesn't care about managing the information that is given to them, you are wrong.  

Sure, Hillary says that she is pro choice.  But what is pro choice going to matter as a president?  Not one thing.  The president doesn't get involved in that at all.  The president gets involved in international negotiations, minor military actions, and general perceptions to the outside world.  That's why choosing the person based on their actual personality and track record in those types of things matters.  Unfortunately, the mass media panders to the lowest common denominator.  They will talk about pro choice/black lives matter/ and social programs in regards to the presidential race even though they are the farthest from what the job really is.  

But the president does have veto powers so if you vote against your interests because of personality for president you leave the door open for the people that do actually make those laws to do so unopposed in a direction that you don't agree with.  Get in Trump and now congress can easily put through laws that would never make it through a democrat president unopposed.  

Sure, foreign diplomacy is what takes up most of the president's time, but they do have influence over social issues at home as well and that shouldn't be ignored.  

I mentioned that a president does have veto powers on most of the legislation, that is unless a supermajority agree.   As you probably know, most laws require many amendments/"pork bellies" added to them to meet all of the special interests needs.  That is the unfortunate system flaw that we have.  

The Presidents influence is very minimal in the last 20 years or so.  There are few laws that get all of a particular party to even vote for them.  If a sitting black president can make no headway on things to the point that a new movement was started since he became president(Black Lives Matter) to change laws to protect black people from the system, there is no further proof needed.  It has to be the right leader that inspires people and other leaders to make change happen.  It doesn't come from a political party, it comes from an inspirational leader that people can believe in.  Obama has proved that even with a democratic majority(his first term) and ideals that fit his party and the medias agenda, making change isn't easy.  He just isn't inspirational enough to get people behind him and move the needle.

So, the president as a person is most important, the party is always second.  There is a reason they call it Commander in Chief.



It is near the end of the end....

SanAndreasX said:
Things to consider:

The next President is likely to have the first opportunity for a single President to shape the Supreme Court since Nixon transformed the liberal Warren Court into the conservative Burger Court by appointing four justices. Scalia's seat remains unfilled, and several other justices are in their 80s and could die or retire at any time. Most estimates say at least 3 seats (including Scalia's) will be up for grabs in the next Presidential term.

In my eyes right now, Congress is the enemy, especially the House. Personally, I want a President and a Supreme Court that will work together to contain Congress until they get their shit together and get all the idiots and religious ideologues out of both the Senate and the House, and until they can get some Congressional reform together that eliminates gerrymandering. The President's role in this is to veto bad laws sent to his or her desk by Congress and to appoint Supreme Court Justices that will overturn unconstitutional legislation.

I think if it is so easily possible to split the supreme court by party lines something is very wrong with the justice system.

Gerrymandering and filibustering are just more inherently undemocratic atrocities that need to be abolished.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Landguy said:

 

The Presidents influence is very minimal in the last 20 years or so.

I'd argue almost the opposite thanks to the past few Presidents.  Remember Bush's signing statement when passing the torture bill (which I believe was vetoed and then sent back to him after 2/3 vote).  He signed the torture bill with a signing statement stating basically he doesn't have to follow the law.  That he is above the law.

"This was not the first such statement to come from the White House. When Congress passed a bill outlawing torture of detainees last year, President Bush quietly released a signing statement in which he affirmed his right to bypass the law if he felt it jeopardized national security"

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/3/27/bush_signs_statements_to_bypass_torture

You then have the increased use of executive actions that Bush did a decent amount of and Obama has done more in wake of a Congress that is stalemated. 



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I disagree. A person's temperament, disposition, integrity and ideology are profoundly important when choosing a leader. Trump of course fails miserably in every category to a greater extent than any of his opponents could ever dream of matching.



vivster said:

... and Trump the most upstanding citizen.

Simply because it's all about policy. I like the left wing policies a lot more than the right wing ones and I would gain nothing by voting republican.

 

Of course this is hypothetical since I live in a real democracy where we vote for parties and their policies first and then faces.

Democrats don't have left wing policies...



SuaveSocialist said:
I disagree. A person's temperament, disposition, integrity and ideology are profoundly important when choosing a leader. Trump of course fails miserably in every category to a greater extent than any of his opponents could ever dream of matching.

I find that hilarious given how awful Hillary is in drumming war up against the Russians as of late. Not even Trump is doing that.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

agree



vivster said:

... and Trump the most upstanding citizen.

Simply because it's all about policy. I like the left wing policies a lot more than the right wing ones and I would gain nothing by voting republican.

 

Of course this is hypothetical since I live in a real democracy where we vote for parties and their policies first and then faces.

Na F that! I vote for the best in office, especially for international affairs, it just happens to be Hillary this time instead of the "Blow top" one.