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Forums - Sports Discussion - The Pro Wrasslin' Thread (WWE, WWF, WCW, TNA, ROH, NWA, NJPW, etc)

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What match are you excited for at WWE Payback 2017?

Neville vs. Austin Aries ... 1 5.88%
 
Randy Orton vs. Bray Wyat... 3 17.65%
 
The Hardy Boyz vs. Cesaro... 3 17.65%
 
Kevin Owens vs. Chris Jer... 4 23.53%
 
Bayley vs. Alexa Bliss (Raw Women's Title) 3 17.65%
 
Seth Rollins vs. Samoa Joe 1 5.88%
 
Roman Reigns vs. Braun Strowman 2 11.76%
 
Total:17
BasilZero said:

What a utter mess.

So its been revealed that the triple threat between CM Punk VS Seth Rollins VS Roman Reigns will go main event at night 1 while Cody VS Cena main eventing night 2.....



Okay...so the Royal Rumble winner/WHC championship match isnt main eventing.


I still feel that the Royal rumble contract match should main event.

If we went with that, we'd have Charlotte vs Tiffany night 1 and Jey Uso vs Gunther night 2. And I'm really not super psyched for either of those matches. 

Of course, they could have picked different rumble winners, but considering where we are now, those are definitely the top 2 matches for most people. 



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JWeinCom said:

If we went with that, we'd have Charlotte vs Tiffany night 1 and Jey Uso vs Gunther night 2. And I'm really not super psyched for either of those matches. 

Of course, they could have picked different rumble winners, but considering where we are now, those are definitely the top 2 matches for most people. 

I'm not really a fan of women's matches so I usually tune out when they come on air but I'd be surprised if Charlotte loses, she usually wins most title matches as a challenger.

As for Jey Uso vs Gunther, on one hand I feel for Jey, dude deserves a title shot/title run but I felt like at most he should have won MITB , not Royal Rumble.

Gunther on the other hand, deserved a better opponent. Sucks that the WHC isnt treated as well as it should be.



Jumpin said:

Yeah, it’s really disappointing how they’ve handled that one. And it does seem like a violation of tradition. There is so much more they could have done, but instead have been investing those resources elsewhere. Dropping its position on the card trivializes the importance of a Royal Rumble victory. Regardless, it should still be one of the best, if not the best match across both nights.

Not only that, but a week ago or so, they pretty much pushed the WWE title as the "Most prestigious" title, it is but at the same time felt like it was snub at the WHC title.



I’m perfectly fine with the women’s Royal rumble and men’s Royal rumble matches taking the main event slots, even if they don’t end up being the biggest matches on the card. During the late 90s and early 2000s, about half the time the biggest match was not the main event. Tiffany Stratton vs Charlotte Flair could have been built up better. But, I wish they’d stick to their guns and at least try to push these ones as the biggest matches on the cards.

1997 - Bret vs Austin was much bigger match than Undertaker vs Sid
2000 - The Four corners was an unpopular choice, and the Triangle Ladder Match stole the show.
2002 - Rock vs Hogan was way bigger than Triple H vs Jericho.
2003 - a weird one because Rock vs Austin was bigger than Angle vs Brock, but Angle vs Brock stole the show in the last minute with Brock’s… shooting star headbutt to the the mat.

Three big reasons I think led to the different emphasis:
1. WWE trying to use the titles as a way to build new top stars rather than showcase the actual top stars.
2. Stacked cards, there are so many big wrestlers right now that it’s much more likely others are going to steal spotlight, and WWE writing adapted to this.
3. And this might be the biggest reason: Extra long Wrestlemania season. Wrestlemania should have happened this weekend, or one of the last two weekends. But it’s happening in late April. There’s still 3 weeks left, and so the buzz from the Rumble is wearing off quickly.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Jumpin said:

I’m perfectly fine with the women’s Royal rumble and men’s Royal rumble matches taking the main event slots, even if they don’t end up being the biggest matches on the card. During the late 90s and early 2000s, about half the time the biggest match was not the main event. Tiffany Stratton vs Charlotte Flair could have been built up better. But, I wish they’d stick to their guns and at least try to push these ones as the biggest matches on the cards.

1997 - Bret vs Austin was much bigger match than Undertaker vs Sid
2000 - The Four corners was an unpopular choice, and the Triangle Ladder Match stole the show.
2002 - Rock vs Hogan was way bigger than Triple H vs Jericho.
2003 - a weird one because Rock vs Austin was bigger than Angle vs Brock, but Angle vs Brock stole the show in the last minute with Brock’s… shooting star headbutt to the the mat.

Three big reasons I think led to the different emphasis:
1. WWE trying to use the titles as a way to build new top stars rather than showcase the actual top stars.
2. Stacked cards, there are so many big wrestlers right now that it’s much more likely others are going to steal spotlight, and WWE writing adapted to this.
3. And this might be the biggest reason: Extra long Wrestlemania season. Wrestlemania should have happened this weekend, or one of the last two weekends. But it’s happening in late April. There’s still 3 weeks left, and so the buzz from the Rumble is wearing off quickly.

Just because WWE made bad booking decisions in the past doesn't mean they should make them again. Rock vs Hogan absolutely should have main evented. Ric Flair vs Michaels and Michaels vs Taker. Plenty of times WWE has done stupid things for one reason or another. 

2003 is a good example of when to break the rule. Brock and Angle probably wasn't the biggest match on paper, but it was close. And they had confidence that the two could put on a great match that could follow anything.

With Jey Uso vs Gunther? I just don't see that. Jey is a guy that has a great connection with the crowd, but he's not an elite worker. I've seen them together twice this year, and I honestly can't remember a single moment of either match.

I'd send them out night 1, first match. When the crowd is at their most energetic and just dying to be part of the show. Give Jey a cool entrance, have him win, and the crowd will make him seem like a mega star. If you put him on last, I think you get a less energetic crowd. They won't turn on him or anything like that, but after a few hours I don't think you're going to get the same excitement. 



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JWeinCom said:
Jumpin said:

I’m perfectly fine with the women’s Royal rumble and men’s Royal rumble matches taking the main event slots, even if they don’t end up being the biggest matches on the card. During the late 90s and early 2000s, about half the time the biggest match was not the main event. Tiffany Stratton vs Charlotte Flair could have been built up better. But, I wish they’d stick to their guns and at least try to push these ones as the biggest matches on the cards.

1997 - Bret vs Austin was much bigger match than Undertaker vs Sid
2000 - The Four corners was an unpopular choice, and the Triangle Ladder Match stole the show.
2002 - Rock vs Hogan was way bigger than Triple H vs Jericho.
2003 - a weird one because Rock vs Austin was bigger than Angle vs Brock, but Angle vs Brock stole the show in the last minute with Brock’s… shooting star headbutt to the the mat.

Three big reasons I think led to the different emphasis:
1. WWE trying to use the titles as a way to build new top stars rather than showcase the actual top stars.
2. Stacked cards, there are so many big wrestlers right now that it’s much more likely others are going to steal spotlight, and WWE writing adapted to this.
3. And this might be the biggest reason: Extra long Wrestlemania season. Wrestlemania should have happened this weekend, or one of the last two weekends. But it’s happening in late April. There’s still 3 weeks left, and so the buzz from the Rumble is wearing off quickly.

Just because WWE made bad booking decisions in the past doesn't mean they should make them again. Rock vs Hogan absolutely should have main evented. Ric Flair vs Michaels and Michaels vs Taker. Plenty of times WWE has done stupid things for one reason or another. 

2003 is a good example of when to break the rule. Brock and Angle probably wasn't the biggest match on paper, but it was close. And they had confidence that the two could put on a great match that could follow anything.

With Jey Uso vs Gunther? I just don't see that. Jey is a guy that has a great connection with the crowd, but he's not an elite worker. I've seen them together twice this year, and I honestly can't remember a single moment of either match.

I'd send them out night 1, first match. When the crowd is at their most energetic and just dying to be part of the show. Give Jey a cool entrance, have him win, and the crowd will make him seem like a mega star. If you put him on last, I think you get a less energetic crowd. They won't turn on him or anything like that, but after a few hours I don't think you're going to get the same excitement. 

I agree with you that the booking was bad, but disagree on what's wrong or how to fix it. Switching the Royal Rumble winner away from the main event is lazy and damaging. Each time they do that diminishes the value of the Royal Rumble. All that stupid pointing at the WrestleMania sign becomes even more pointless since they're no longer winning the Wrestlemania main event, and are rather, just earning another title shot for a lesser slot.

Saying that Jey is "not an elite worker" isn't saying anything to your argument when you're praising Hogan and Flair in the same post. Hogan and Flair complete trash when it comes to working in the ring and are less articulate than a brain damaged crackhead on the mic. It was the writing and marketing that made those two pieces of monkey feces as big as they were. Jey is a vastly superior worker to either of them in the ring.

There are plenty of things WWE could have done to make Jey vs Gunther bigger. First, build Imperium back up a little, and push the bloodline into the Jey angle. Make their match more of a focal point of a much wider part of the show. Austin vs Rock, the reason why the first two of these matches were so big was because they were the main battle of a war - Austin vs McMahon, Rock vs the McMahon faction, Austin vs The Corporation and that belt meaning something to these wars going on. The problem isn't booking Jey vs Gunther, both of them have done an excellent job - no one right now is able to rouse the crowd has hot as Jey can - the problem is how little effort they put into making that match and that belt feel as big as it should. Almost every other wrestler in WWE, outside of Jimmy, doesn't seem to have any interest in the title belt or anything surrounding it. That's where the mistake is. There's no war, no stakes, and ultimately no Royal Rumble winner in the main event of Wrestlemania.

Anyway, I hate playing backseat booker. I personally just prefer watching and enjoying the show, and not thinking too much about the backstage stuff. If I enjoy it, I enjoy it, if I don't then I don't. But I'd rather they'd have the Royal Rumble winner main eventing Wrestlemania, regardless of whether or not it's the biggest match on the card - and if they want it to be the biggest, they shouldn't shuffle the card making the Royal Rumble winner lose the spot they're supposed to have, they should make that title match the biggest.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Jumpin said:
JWeinCom said:

Just because WWE made bad booking decisions in the past doesn't mean they should make them again. Rock vs Hogan absolutely should have main evented. Ric Flair vs Michaels and Michaels vs Taker. Plenty of times WWE has done stupid things for one reason or another. 

2003 is a good example of when to break the rule. Brock and Angle probably wasn't the biggest match on paper, but it was close. And they had confidence that the two could put on a great match that could follow anything.

With Jey Uso vs Gunther? I just don't see that. Jey is a guy that has a great connection with the crowd, but he's not an elite worker. I've seen them together twice this year, and I honestly can't remember a single moment of either match.

I'd send them out night 1, first match. When the crowd is at their most energetic and just dying to be part of the show. Give Jey a cool entrance, have him win, and the crowd will make him seem like a mega star. If you put him on last, I think you get a less energetic crowd. They won't turn on him or anything like that, but after a few hours I don't think you're going to get the same excitement. 

I agree with you that the booking was bad, but disagree on what's wrong or how to fix it. Switching the Royal Rumble winner away from the main event is lazy and damaging. Each time they do that diminishes the value of the Royal Rumble. All that stupid pointing at the WrestleMania sign becomes even more pointless since they're no longer winning the Wrestlemania main event, and are rather, just earning another title shot for a lesser slot.

Saying that Jey is "not an elite worker" isn't saying anything to your argument when you're praising Hogan and Flair in the same post. Hogan and Flair complete trash when it comes to working in the ring and are less articulate than a brain damaged crackhead on the mic. It was the writing and marketing that made those two pieces of monkey feces as big as they were. Jey is a vastly superior worker to either of them in the ring.

There are plenty of things WWE could have done to make Jey vs Gunther bigger. First, build Imperium back up a little, and push the bloodline into the Jey angle. Make their match more of a focal point of a much wider part of the show. Austin vs Rock, the reason why the first two of these matches were so big was because they were the main battle of a war - Austin vs McMahon, Rock vs the McMahon faction, Austin vs The Corporation and that belt meaning something to these wars going on. The problem isn't booking Jey vs Gunther, both of them have done an excellent job - no one right now is able to rouse the crowd has hot as Jey can - the problem is how little effort they put into making that match and that belt feel as big as it should. Almost every other wrestler in WWE, outside of Jimmy, doesn't seem to have any interest in the title belt or anything surrounding it. That's where the mistake is. There's no war, no stakes, and ultimately no Royal Rumble winner in the main event of Wrestlemania.

Anyway, I hate playing backseat booker. I personally just prefer watching and enjoying the show, and not thinking too much about the backstage stuff. If I enjoy it, I enjoy it, if I don't then I don't. But I'd rather they'd have the Royal Rumble winner main eventing Wrestlemania, regardless of whether or not it's the biggest match on the card - and if they want it to be the biggest, they shouldn't shuffle the card making the Royal Rumble winner lose the spot they're supposed to have, they should make that title match the biggest.

Ric Flair and Hogan didn't need to be elite wrestlers. From the moment Hogan and the Rock had their stare down the crowd was electric. Do you think Jey and Gunther staring at each other is going to have that kind of aura? If not, then there is more pressure on their actual in ring performance and I just don't see them putting on a match that will justify their main event spot. 

Ultimately, I don't really care if it cheapens the rumble. I don't think at this point putting Jey in that spot is really good for anyone, including him. Maybe they could have booked it so that would feel like a mania main event worthy match but they already didn't do that, so better to just not try and force it.



Interesting that they are putting Matches into the Hall of Fame.

Stone Cold VS Bret Hart will be the first.



BasilZero said:

Interesting that they are putting Matches into the Hall of Fame.

Stone Cold VS Bret Hart will be the first.

I think they realized that at the rate they're adding people they would run out of wrestlers soon. Regardless I think its a neat idea.



Jumpin said:

Stevie Richards and James Romero (on their channel) brought up an interesting thing about the disconnect between entrances and what happens in the ring. As much as people hate Rousseau (especially Cornette) and Rousseau hates wrestling these days, he points out that Rousseau did something that other writers wouldn't do - he'd talk to the wrestlers right before they went out, reminding them what happened last time they were on camera. Why is this important?

For years now now, many wrestlers when their music hits, they head down to the ring and do their regular entrance regardless of the context of their story. Even Cody Rhodes has been super smiley every time he's on his way to the ring, as though the story only counts when he reaches the ring. Richards points out that decades ago, Rousseau would stand in the Gorilla position and give wrestlers a simple run down before they headed out: "Remember, ____ happened last time you were on screen, tonight you wanna kill ____, and he's right there in the ring. Nothing else in your entrance matters, tonight your goal is him, not playing to the fans."

I remember when the shift began to happen to ignoring the story and just doing the intro thing. It was immediately after the Attitude era, Spring 2002, Get the F Out transitional phase, Hulk Hogan is supposed to be making a save, but instead he just prances around in that stupid boa thing he wears like some kind of fucking idiot while playing to the crowd while the person he was supposed to be saving was getting beaten up (I believe The Rock, who is being beaten down by Hall and Nash, or something like that).

I know Cornette and Richards aren't the most popular people within WWE, but the two of them are among the most knowledgeable and intelligent guys who ever worked for the company. These are guys who think a lot about the product, and have a ton of experience within. If WWE wants to strengthen their product, they should hire them as consultants, or at least listen to their shows.

This is something AEW does do. If someone is pissed off they come out the tunnel pissed off. Not trying to be tribal here. Just a difference in approach from two companies.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!