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Forums - Politics Discussion - Judging the debate: a point by point analysis

 

How do you think the candidates did?

Both came out looking strong. 0 0%
 
Both of them took a big beating. 6 4.80%
 
Clinton came out ahead. 85 68.00%
 
Trump came out ahead. 21 16.80%
 
The moderator won. 13 10.40%
 
Total:125
Norris2k said:
Final-Fan said:

But I mean ... let's say, for the sake of argument, that this money convinced Clinton not to take action against the Russian deal (while other people independently approved it).  That would be extremely bad.  But Trump set up a fake university to scam people out of money.  Then he bribed a district attorney not to press charges (campaign donation right as the decision whether to press the investigation forward was taking place, IIRC the attorney was the one to ask for the money but he still gave it).  There is literally a scandal breaking RIGHT NOW about illegally breaking the embargo that was on Cuba for decades (although the embargo was just recently lifted this took place many years ago).  The only reason Clinton looks like she is in the same galaxy as Trump when it comes to corruption is that the light has been shining on her a lot harder.  I agree that the light should shine hard.  But it's exposing a lot more on Trump. 

That's a good test, and at the end of the day we come to a subjective opinion, based on our values and assessments. So, for the case you describe I reason the following way. Both candidates prove that they are basically bad people. In term of scale, Clinton is way bigger. Favoring a sometime hostile foreign country for critical resources access is not comparable to the small impact of spending 70.000$ in Cuba, or scaming hundred of people.I tend to think a business man has much less morale resonsibility than a public servant. My mother was a tax inspector, incorruptible and proud to be. I blame the corrupted over the corruptor, so again I say that Clinton is worst. The risk that Trump get corrupted is relatively high, we also don't really know his business ties and obligations. But he didn't get so much funding from wall street, and he does not seem to have an organized system. Hillary is already corrupted for sure, by foreign interest. In this case, I prefer risk and change over certainty. What would be your reasonning that makes Clinton better in this case ?

My answer would be this:  for all the wealth Trump has amassed, his actual power is tiny compared to that of the President of the United States.  If he is this crooked as a businessman, how can you imagine he will not be incredibly corrupt when put into the most powerful office on the planet?  It's not uncertain in my view.  If Trump's corruption is small scale it is because despite being a billionaire he is operating at small scale compared to the United States government.  What he is asking you to do is to let him run the bigtime show, when you already know he's spent his time running the sideshow picking customers' pockets. 

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."  ~Abraham Lincoln

Secondly, add to that the fact that Clinton actually knows how to run the country and deal with foreign powers, while Trump does not.  And he refuses to learn, as is shown by the debate. 

Thirdly, I believe Trump operates on this business mindset:  Any publicity is good publicity, because you don't have to win over everybody and you don't even have to win over the majority of people.  You only have to win over enough people to keep your business going.  So if you cast a wide enough net, even a smaller percentage will do.  I believe that's why he's spent his whole life tending to his public image.  It's why he is obsessed with being on the winning side and never admits to losing in the past, present, or future, regardless of evidence.  This apparently works for his businesses on average (remembering that he's gone bankrupt several times), but it's not a good way to approach the operation of a government that is supposed to work for the whole population.  And I think the way it affects his thinking is very dangerous, because if you can never admit to losing, it's hard to admit you have to change course. 

Two key quotes from a NY Times article
Mr. Trump, for his part, sought to blame everything but himself. During an appearance on Fox News on Tuesday, he charged that the moderator, Lester Holt of NBC News, had become overly aggressive with him — although he inaccurately said that Mr. Holt had questioned him over a 1973 federal discrimination lawsuit against Mr. Trump’s company. (Mrs. Clinton had raised the lawsuit question.) He also suggested that his performance was related to a faulty mike — even though he was perfectly audible during the telecast — and that he may have been the victim of sabotage.

The team had primed Mr. Trump to look for roughly a dozen key phrases and expressions Mrs. Clinton uses when she is uncertain or uncomfortable, but he did not seem to pay attention during the practice sessions, one aide said, and failed to home in on her vulnerabilities during the debate.

He apparently doesn't want to study and/or isn't good at it, and these are TERRIFYING qualities for a presidential candidate to have, especially one who is not already familiar with how the government works.  There is a podcast episode by a guy named Sam Harris that I think illuminates this point well.  I will quote a significant section of what he said in a separate post due to its size, and I really recommend you read the post fully.  If you'd like, I do encourage you to listen to the whole thing and see if it convinces you of anything you didn't already know about Trump. 

"There's too much evidence that he knows nothing about the world, and that he does not care that he knows nothing about it.  He's just winging it.  He gives the overwhelming impression of being a con man."



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az1JyDJ_iKU
First excerpt approximately 1:25 to 9:55; second, 11:45 to 20:20

"What I object to in Trump isn't his bigotry, or misogyny, or demagoguery, even.  I think I share many people's opinion that this is partly an act.  And now I don't know why I think that; it's just a hunch.  I don't know the man, and I don't know anyone who knows him, or at least I'm not aware I know of anyone who knows him, but I would not be at all surprised to learn that he is far more liberal and psychologically balanced than he appears, and that he doesn't actually have a racist bone in his body, for instance.  This strikes me as possible.  What does not strike me as possible is that he might actually be a brilliant and extraordinarily knowledgeable person who is qualified to be President of the United States.  There is simply too much evidence for the poverty of his thinking.  There's too much evidence that he knows nothing about the world, and that he does not care that he knows nothing about it.  He's just winging it.  He gives the overwhelming impression of being a con man.  The journalist michael Kinsley once said that Al Gore was an old person's idea of a young person.  That was certainly fitting.  I think you could say of Trump that he is a poor person's idea of a rich person.  I mean, he's a fat cat in the comic strip.  He brags about how much money he has, all the while probably lying about how much money he has, but he'll stand at the podium and say, "I am rich; I am so rich; I am really, really rich," and people applaud.  Who is applauding this?  At the core of this, the core of what bothers me about Trump, is the vacuousness of his speech.  He will literally say the same thing three times in a row, and it was meaningless the first time.  The problem is, the caricatures of him are true.  He'll say, "It's going to be amazing; you won't believe how amazing it will be; it will be very, very amazing."  This is an intellectual problem, okay?  Smart people don't talk this way.  When people are speaking, they're thinking out loud.  I am thinking out loud at this moment.  If you listen to my podcast for a few hours, you know how I think.  So when people don't make sense, it's not like they're thinking brilliant, incisive thoughts in the privacy of their minds, and then they just sound like dummies when they open their mouths.  Generally speaking, what you hear is what they've got.  Yes, it's true that not every smart person is a great public speaker.  And you can find great speakers who are essentially just reading what some smarter person wrote.  But it is significant that Trump never manages to utter a single extemporaneous string of sentences that is deep, insightful, or even interesting.  This reveals something about him—and this is a point I made on Rogan's podcast, and I think I'll give you the same analogy here—imagine you have an urn, and every time you reach into it, you pull out another piece of junk.  You've just got broken glass, and zip ties, and bits of bone, all right, nothing of value.  Well, while it might seem unlikely, it's not impossible that something of tremendous value is also in there.  You could pull the Hope Diamond out of there if you just keep fishing around.  Now, that's possible because what you pull out in each round doesn't really indicate what else is in there.  Minds are not like that; ideas are connected.  The ability to reason well is transferable from one domain to another, and so is an inability to reason.  A desire not to seem incoherent:  this is something that intelligent, well-informed people tend to have.  Yet when you hear someone speak, at length, on topics that are crucial to the most important enterprise they're engaging in, and all they've got is bluster and bombast and banality strewn with factual errors, it is quite irrational to believe that there is a brilliant mind behind all of that just waiting to get out.  Trump is not hiding his light under a bushel; he is all bushel.  And bizarrely, I've heard from people who think that because he is rich he must be deeply knowledgeable about economics at the very least.  No—and you should read what largely conservative economists have written about the prospects of a Trump presidency.  They are terrified of this:  the idea that we might want to default on our national debt, that we can renegotiate it as though the United States were a golf course or a casino that was going under.  We're talking about a world-destabilizing bit of stupidity, and only one of many that he's given voice to. 

"And as far as the war against global jihadism is concerned, many of you are confused, frankly, about the supercifial similarity between his positions, if I can call them that, the noises he has made on these topics, and the kind of views I've expressed in the past.  Yes, I've said that, under certain conditions, torture would be ethical—in fact, you'd have to be a moral monster not to use force to get someone to talk.  I've said this in the context of believing that torture should always be illegal.  We should have a policy that we don't use it.  And the cases I've described are absolute corner conditions where somebody would be moved to break the law and we wouldn't prosecute them because at the end of the day we recognized that it was ethical to do so.  Who knows when or if these situations would emerge?  I have largely written this in the context of trying to understand ethics more deeply.  Trump is a presidential candidate who's bragging about how he will torture people.  I wouldn't think I would have to go into all that is wrong with that.  This would be disastrous for our standing in the world. 

"I am someone who bemoaned our political correctness about the connection between Muslim violence and the doctrine of Islam, and Trump is someone who seems to speak with refreshing condor on this topic.  He's even said that we should bar all Muslims from entering the United States, if only for a time.  Well, apart from being a totally unworkable, unethical, and needlessly inflammatory policy prescription, it is just absolutely obvious that Trump doesn't know anything about Islam or jihadism.  He is an ignoramus on this topic and every topic related to it, and it is obvious.  At one point he was confusing the Quds Force with the Kurds, right, this guy's head is not in the game.  Now, I'm sure he's gonna cram before the final exam before the debates with Clinton and he will be able to speak a paragraph on this topic that isn't starkly delusional, but if you push beyond that paragraph he will once again expose his basic ignorance of Middle East politics and history and the theology of Islam.  And while it is true that Clinton spoons out the most sanctimonious pablum on the topic of Islam, there is abundant evidence that she understands the nature of the problem.  She is in fact far more hawkish than most liberals are comfortable with.  She has already shown a commitment to killing jihadists, every bit as much of a commitment as Trump claims to have.  Yes, the fact that Middle Eastern governments have given money to the Clinton Foundation?  That is politically indecent.  Do I think that will cloud Clinton's judgment in the war on terror?  That does not seem likely at all.  Even if I thought that were likely, Trump is a scarier prospect." 
"Now in response to anything I might say against Trump, his supporters will raise Clinton's email scandal, so, this is a concern of a totally different order than the ones I've voiced against Trump.  Trump has ideas that are extraordinarily destructive and he has a relationship to his own ignorance that is dangerous.  He thinks the notion of human-caused climate change is a Chinese hoax meant to destroy our manufacturing base.  The prospect of a President believing that is terrifying.  Clinton's email scandal—well, what do you actually think was going on there?  Do you think she's a spy?  Do you think she was sharing state secrets with the Russians?  No.  She wanted to keep her email private and didn't understand the implications of running stuff on her own server.  It was a sloppy, stupid thing to do.  With Trump, we're talking about someone who has ideas about what our nation should do that are anchored to nothing other than his own personal urges.  This is a guy who spent months and months publicly worrying about President Obama's birth certificate.  If you want to understand how deep his anti-intellectualism runs, consider the fraud of Trump University, where he bilked poor and elderly people out of their money in return for pseudoknowledge.  This is who Clinton is running against.  We have to get out of the wilderness of false equivalence here.  Yes, there's a lot to say about Clinton, and if you're gonna bring her husband into it there's just a wasteland of embarrassment there.  But these are not the sorts of things that could push the career of our species into the ditch.  Trump shows every sign of being that sort of character, where a combination of hubris and ignorance of a sort that we have never seen could create extraordinary economic and political chaos.  There is nothing like that on Clinton's side, hence a "lesser of two evils" argument makes perfect sense here. 

"The amazing thing about Trump is that he is so terrible that he has completely reset everyone's expectations of what is conceivably acceptable in a presidential candidate.  You've seen the footage of him openly mocking a disable reporter, right?  Imagine what that would have done to any other person's campaign.  Imagine President Obama, eight years ago, doing that.  Imagine Hillary Clinton, today, doing that.  That's the end of the campaign.  Trump has done a dozen things like that that are so unpresidential, that show such poor judgment, suck a lack of impulse control, such a pettiness, such narcissism, such emotional and intellectual immaturity, it would be inconceivable to promote such a person in any other context as the candidate of a major political party.  And yet here we are with Trump.  And I do share the view that has been expressed by many and that I actually expressed early on that liberals, in their political correctness, are largely culpable for this, because we are all tired of political correctness.  Being a bully and a braggart and a buffoon is not the only way to disavow political correctness.  But I believe it is true that everyone's loss of patience with politically correct lies has allowed one of the most fraudulent and egocentric people who has ever walked the earth [to] launch what is now an all-too-plausible bid for the presidency. 

"And political correctness is even now confusing people about Trump.  It's causing them to focus on the points of least concern and in fact remain blind to what is attractive about him for people.  Take the case of the judge who's presiding over the Trump University lawsuit.  Now, this is the American-born judge who Trump has said can't cover the case fairly because of his Mexican heritage.  And then when asked if a Muslim judge could judge the case fairly he said, "Uh, that might a problem too," given what he has said about Muslims.  And these two comments are being considered, even by Republicans who have recently endorsed him, to be totally beyond the pale.  Paul Ryan said that these were "textbook" racist comments, though I think he's still endorsing him, which suggests something about Paul Ryan's principles.  But these comments, more than anything else Trump has said or done, seem to have rattled everybody, Democrat and Republican.  But I think people are actually fixated on the wrong thing here.  I watched those interview with Trump and I actually think it's possible to have a charitable interpretation of what he said, what he meant, given the fact that he thinks he's being screwed over by a judge—I'm sure he's wrong about that, but let's just say that's his perception.  It is possible to interpret what he said in a non-racist way.  He's basically talking about bias.  He's saying, "Listen.  I want to build a wall between the U.S. and Mexico.  This has made many Mexican-Americans, or people with strong feelings on this topic, despise me.  And so it is with the Muslim community for what I've said about immigration.  So how could I expect to be judged fairly?  What guarantee do I have that this judge isn't being ruled by a very understandable bias against me?"  So he was just speaking, true to form, without any concern for political correctness.  And this is what people love about him.  The people who love him loved this.  He is plain-spoken.  He's not gonna bend an inch to accomodate the social anxieties of preachy social-justice hypocrites.  And that is his strength among the people who love him.  You're not going to beat him by criticizing that.  However, what is truly reprehensible here is his total unawareness of the legal and social implications of what he's suggesting should happen, right?  Imagine if you could ask a judge who was white, or a woman, or black, or old to recuse him- or herself just based on one of these superficial characteristics and the possibility of bias.  Our judicial system would grind to a halt.  Totally unworkable—insane—once again absolute proof that Trump is just winging it.  He has no idea what he's talking about.  And so it is with everything else he has suggested he wants to do or might want to do to the press or to other institutions in our society based on his presidential power.  But to fixate on his racism here is is to miss the actual danger of the guy and also to fail to see that what you're calling racism is the very thing that the people who love him, who are craving honesty, love about him.  And it's not that they're racist, necessarily, either.  (Yes, I'm sure all the racists in the country also love Trump, for obvious reasons, so he's getting those votes, too.)  But the crucial point to absorb here is that the people who support him, even at moments like this, without it being an expression of their own racism, and without their perceiving racism in him.  What I see in the love for Trump among smart people, right, not racist dummies, is a total loss of patience for political correctness.


Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Here's Part 2.  I can't seem to get the embedding to simultaneously work in here and also cue up to the right section. 
The juiciest part probably starts at 8 minutes and 5 seconds. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

thranx said:
this must be the only poll clinton won on the debate. I think the vgchartz community is far from representing what americans think.

Probably comes down to 4chan users not being able to vote in this poll.... a couple of thousand times. Maybe!



Why not check me out on youtube and help me on the way to 2k subs over at www.youtube.com/stormcloudlive

Final-Fan said:

My answer would be this:  for all the wealth Trump has amassed, his actual power is tiny compared to that of the President of the United States.  If he is this crooked as a businessman, how can you imagine he will not be incredibly corrupt when put into the most powerful office on the planet?  It's not uncertain in my view.  If Trump's corruption is small scale it is because despite being a billionaire he is operating at small scale compared to the United States government.  What he is asking you to do is to let him run the bigtime show, when you already know he's spent his time running the sideshow picking customers' pockets. 

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."  ~Abraham Lincoln

Secondly, add to that the fact that Clinton actually knows how to run the country and deal with foreign powers, while Trump does not.  And he refuses to learn, as is shown by the debate. 

Thirdly, I believe Trump operates on this business mindset:  Any publicity is good publicity, because you don't have to win over everybody and you don't even have to win over the majority of people.  You only have to win over enough people to keep your business going.  So if you cast a wide enough net, even a smaller percentage will do.  I believe that's why he's spent his whole life tending to his public image.  It's why he is obsessed with being on the winning side and never admits to losing in the past, present, or future, regardless of evidence.  This apparently works for his businesses on average (remembering that he's gone bankrupt several times), but it's not a good way to approach the operation of a government that is supposed to work for the whole population.  And I think the way it affects his thinking is very dangerous, because if you can never admit to losing, it's hard to admit you have to change course. 

Two key quotes from a NY Times article
Mr. Trump, for his part, sought to blame everything but himself. During an appearance on Fox News on Tuesday, he charged that the moderator, Lester Holt of NBC News, had become overly aggressive with him — although he inaccurately said that Mr. Holt had questioned him over a 1973 federal discrimination lawsuit against Mr. Trump’s company. (Mrs. Clinton had raised the lawsuit question.) He also suggested that his performance was related to a faulty mike — even though he was perfectly audible during the telecast — and that he may have been the victim of sabotage.

The team had primed Mr. Trump to look for roughly a dozen key phrases and expressions Mrs. Clinton uses when she is uncertain or uncomfortable, but he did not seem to pay attention during the practice sessions, one aide said, and failed to home in on her vulnerabilities during the debate.

He apparently doesn't want to study and/or isn't good at it, and these are TERRIFYING qualities for a presidential candidate to have, especially one who is not already familiar with how the government works.  There is a podcast episode by a guy named Sam Harris that I think illuminates this point well.  I will quote a significant section of what he said in a separate post due to its size, and I really recommend you read the post fully.  If you'd like, I do encourage you to listen to the whole thing and see if it convinces you of anything you didn't already know about Trump. 

"There's too much evidence that he knows nothing about the world, and that he does not care that he knows nothing about it.  He's just winging it.  He gives the overwhelming impression of being a con man."

But you mostly talked about topics very far away from the comparison base you talked about. I mean, ecology is a very important matter, but not relevant in the matter. What you are saying is that Trump does not have the scale and immorality (from my perspective regarding public servant mission) because he did not have the power yet. But that would make him at most as bad, not worst. And it's not even sure that scam and all translate into corruption. Some can steal their company, not there family, Wall Street is not betting on him.

About not knowing the world, and that's again an other subject, I'm not sure if that matters as much as being willing to do something or anything outside what the very companies and countries that created the problems decides. I mean, look at Putin he is certainly not the best economist and nicest person in town, but he understood quite quickly that by breaking the oligarchy owning the petrol and converting petroleum industry into state owned companies, he could easily fuel 2 decades of growth, improve average revenue and rebuild the military. The only reasons that prevented the previous presidents to do so was corruption, ideology, and legal concerns. Unfair competition (self-regulation, tax, unfair competitors) for economy, unending ISIS problem (bad relationship with Russia and obsession against Assad, free pass to Saudi Arabia) are some of the biggest problems. It could be just as simple as having a little bit of common sense and not do more of the same.



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Norris2k said:
Final-Fan said:

My answer would be this:  for all the wealth Trump has amassed, his actual power is tiny compared to that of the President of the United States.  If he is this crooked as a businessman, how can you imagine he will not be incredibly corrupt when put into the most powerful office on the planet?  It's not uncertain in my view.  If Trump's corruption is small scale it is because despite being a billionaire he is operating at small scale compared to the United States government.  What he is asking you to do is to let him run the bigtime show, when you already know he's spent his time running the sideshow picking customers' pockets. 

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."  ~Abraham Lincoln

Secondly, add to that the fact that Clinton actually knows how to run the country and deal with foreign powers, while Trump does not.  And he refuses to learn, as is shown by the debate. 

Thirdly, I believe Trump operates on this business mindset:  Any publicity is good publicity, because you don't have to win over everybody and you don't even have to win over the majority of people.  You only have to win over enough people to keep your business going.  So if you cast a wide enough net, even a smaller percentage will do.  I believe that's why he's spent his whole life tending to his public image.  It's why he is obsessed with being on the winning side and never admits to losing in the past, present, or future, regardless of evidence.  This apparently works for his businesses on average (remembering that he's gone bankrupt several times), but it's not a good way to approach the operation of a government that is supposed to work for the whole population.  And I think the way it affects his thinking is very dangerous, because if you can never admit to losing, it's hard to admit you have to change course. 

Two key quotes from a NY Times article
Mr. Trump, for his part, sought to blame everything but himself. During an appearance on Fox News on Tuesday, he charged that the moderator, Lester Holt of NBC News, had become overly aggressive with him — although he inaccurately said that Mr. Holt had questioned him over a 1973 federal discrimination lawsuit against Mr. Trump’s company. (Mrs. Clinton had raised the lawsuit question.) He also suggested that his performance was related to a faulty mike — even though he was perfectly audible during the telecast — and that he may have been the victim of sabotage.

The team had primed Mr. Trump to look for roughly a dozen key phrases and expressions Mrs. Clinton uses when she is uncertain or uncomfortable, but he did not seem to pay attention during the practice sessions, one aide said, and failed to home in on her vulnerabilities during the debate.

He apparently doesn't want to study and/or isn't good at it, and these are TERRIFYING qualities for a presidential candidate to have, especially one who is not already familiar with how the government works.  There is a podcast episode by a guy named Sam Harris that I think illuminates this point well.  I will quote a significant section of what he said in a separate post due to its size, and I really recommend you read the post fully.  If you'd like, I do encourage you to listen to the whole thing and see if it convinces you of anything you didn't already know about Trump. 

"There's too much evidence that he knows nothing about the world, and that he does not care that he knows nothing about it.  He's just winging it.  He gives the overwhelming impression of being a con man."

But you mostly talked about topics very far away from the comparison base you talked about. I mean, ecology is a very important matter, but not relevant in the matter. What you are saying is that Trump does not have the scale and immorality (from my perspective regarding public servant mission) because he did not have the power yet. But that would make him at most as bad, not worst. And it's not even sure that scam and all translate into corruption. Some can steal their company, not there family, Wall Street is not betting on him.

About not knowing the world, and that's again an other subject, I'm not sure if that matters as much as being willing to do something or anything outside what the very companies and countries that created the problems decides. I mean, look at Putin he is certainly not the best economist and nicest person in town, but he understood quite quickly that by breaking the oligarchy owning the petrol and converting petroleum industry into state owned companies, he could easily fuel 2 decades of growth, improve average revenue and rebuild the military. The only reasons that prevented the previous presidents to do so was corruption, ideology, and legal concerns. Unfair competition (self-regulation, tax, unfair competitors) for economy, unending ISIS problem (bad relationship with Russia and obsession against Assad, bad management of illegal immigration) are some of the biggest problems. It could be just as simple as having a little bit of common sense and not doing again the same thing.

I don't really see where I talked about ecology, but now that you mention it Trump has made extremely dangerous proposals on that topic.  You may not like the EPA's regulations but you probably do not remember the huge problems we have had in the past on environmental issues.  Abolishing the EPA would be tantamout to inviting those problems back. 

If you don't think that the scams he's run on thousands of people over multiple projects, AND THE FUCKING BRIBES HE'S GIVEN, indicate a very, very, very strong likelihood to be corrupt in office as President, I really don't know what to say. 

What I don't think you see is that "not doing the same thing" does not therefore constitute "having a little common sense".  You're proposing trading a crook for a madman, a shadowy figure for a moustache-twirling villain. 

Another couple of quotes from Sam Harris, whom I had never heard of a week ago but whom I like more and more by the day: 

When I hear Trump speak extemporaneously, I hear someone very often getting prompted by his own misstatements to complete a thought in a way that he clearly didn't intend to.  Which is to say that the thing he's now saying doesn't reflect anything he believed or even thought about before.  But he's saying it now because the last thing he spoke just launched him there.  It's as though he's speaking in verse and he's forced again and again to complete the rhyme.  It's like he says, "There was once a man from Nantucket," and he's got to finish the thought, so he says, "who always carried a bucket."  But he didn't know he was going to say bucket.  But now he's stuck with it.  And now he'll go to the mat defending "bucket".  But he's rhyming about policy and about world leaders like Putin, and it's the rhyme of ignorance and error and bombast. 
Those of you who are mystified that I could forgive Clinton her obvious lying and other indiscretions just don't understand what a dangerous imbecile I think Trump is.  I really think he is a child in a man's body.  He is a malignantly selfish, ignorant, and petty person, and a tyrant in the making, insofar as our system could accomodate a tyrant.  As I said on that other podcast, if you're supporting the guy because he'll, quote, "shake things up", I think you're just playing a game of chicken with human history—and there's no one in the other car.  It is absolutely astonishing to me that this guy is a candidate for the presidency.  Now, obviously, those of you who support Trump must think I've been misled about him, but I don't think that's true.  I I believe that I see through the media spin against him.  I see that he's occasionally been treated unfairly.  He's also been treated far too fairly, and graded on a curve for almost everything of substance.  I mean, you saw Gary Johnson, the Libertarian candidate, get destroyed in the press for not knowing what Aleppo was.  Trump commits gaffes like that all the time, and people just move on.  And his gaffes are much worse.  His gaffes are policy prescriptions that he pretends to have thought through, and that would be disastrous if implemented. 

Like, at the Presidential forum the other day with Matt Lauer where he was asked about the war in Iraq—I'm going to actually read some of this—he was asked about the war in Iraq, and he said, "I've always said we should have just taken the oil."  When asked how he would do this, he says, and this is a quote, "Well, you, you just would leave a certain group behind, and you would take various sections where they have the oil.  People don't know this about Iraq, but they have among the largest oil reserves in the world.  You know, it used to be, 'to the victor go the spoils.'  Now, there was no victor here, believe me, there was no victor.  But I always said, 'take the oil.'  One of the benefits we would have had if we took the oil is ISIS would not have been able to take the oil and use the oil to fuel themselves," end quote. 

Now, it should be clear that this is much worse than just blanking on what Aleppo is.  This is just insanity.  Forget about the logistical problems of, quote, "just taking the oil."  Forget about the ethical problems of taking the main resource from a country we were ostensibly trying to help and further impoverishing tens of millions of people that we have just submitted to punishing sanctions for a decade and who we just freed from a brutal dictatorship.  What's he picturing happening in Iraq to the Iraqi people when we "just take their oil"?  Mass starvation?  Forget about that.  Forget about the fact that ISIS's primary funding hasn't been oil.  They were robbing banks and forcing people to just give them money.  Forget about that.  Just think about how the world, both Muslim and non-, would have responded to our invading Iraq and then just stealing their oil.  Which is to say, confirming the craziest conspiracy theories about why we invaded the country in the first place.  Trump is telling us that this is what he would have done had he inherited the ongoing problem of Iraq.  This is so much worse than not understanding what the word Aleppo means in the context of a weirdly posed question, and yet Trump gets away with it.  And, again, there have been probably hundreds of moments like this in the campaign.  In any case, I've bracketed all of the charges against him that seem spurious, and I've acknowledged that his plain talk about radical Islam is preferable to the sanctimonious lies we get out of the Democrats.  (And if you want to read about what Hillary could and should say about radical Islam, that article's on my blog.)  But I can't overlook the fact that the man shows every sign, really every sign, of being motivated by pure selfishness and narcissism, to be compared with Hillary's partial selfishness and narcissism, and he strikes me as being completely rudderless intellectually.  I mean, you want to understand how I see Trump?  Blow up a balloon without tying off the end and hold it up high and then release it.  Then watch it fly chaotically around the room. That’s Trump’s mind. In my view, that’s what we’d be doing with the country if we put him in charge:  just hitching our country to a totally chaotic system.  If that's your view of "shaking things up", you're a nihilist. 


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Final-Fan said:

I don't really see where I talked about ecology, but now that you mention it Trump has made extremely dangerous proposals on that topic.  You may not like the EPA's regulations but you probably do not remember the huge problems we have had in the past on environmental issues.  Abolishing the EPA would be tantamout to inviting those problems back. 

If you don't think that the scams he's run on thousands of people over multiple projects, AND THE FUCKING BRIBES HE'S GIVEN, indicate a very, very, very strong likelihood to be corrupt in office as President, I really don't know what to say. 

What I don't think you see is that "not doing the same thing" does not therefore constitute "having a little common sense".  You're proposing trading a crook for a madman, a shadowy figure for a moustache-twirling villain. 

Another couple of quotes from Sam Harris, whom I had never heard of a week ago but whom I like more and more by the day: 

When I hear Trump speak extemporaneously, I hear someone very often getting prompted by his own misstatements to complete a thought in a way that he clearly didn't intend to.  Which is to say that the thing he's now saying doesn't reflect anything he believed or even thought about before.  But he's saying it now because the last thing he spoke just launched him there.  It's as though he's speaking in verse and he's forced again and again to complete the rhyme.  It's like he says, "There was once a man from Nantucket," and he's got to finish the thought, so he says, "who always carried a bucket."  But he didn't know he was going to say bucket.  But now he's stuck with it.  And now he'll go to the mat defending "bucket".  But he's rhyming about policy and about world leaders like Putin, and it's the rhyme of ignorance and error and bombast. 
Those of you who are mystified that I could forgive Clinton her obvious lying and other indiscretions just don't understand what a dangerous imbecile I think Trump is.  I really think he is a child in a man's body.  He is a malignantly selfish, ignorant, and petty person, and a tyrant in the making, insofar as our system could accomodate a tyrant.  As I said on that other podcast, if you're supporting the guy because he'll, quote, "shake things up", I think you're just playing a game of chicken with human history—and there's no one in the other car.  It is absolutely astonishing to me that this guy is a candidate for the presidency.  Now, obviously, those of you who support Trump must think I've been misled about him, but I don't think that's true.  I I believe that I see through the media spin against him.  I see that he's occasionally been treated unfairly.  He's also been treated far too fairly, and graded on a curve for almost everything of substance.  I mean, you saw Gary Johnson, the Libertarian candidate, get destroyed in the press for not knowing what Aleppo was.  Trump commits gaffes like that all the time, and people just move on.  And his gaffes are much worse.  His gaffes are policy prescriptions that he pretends to have thought through, and that would be disastrous if implemented. 

Like, at the Presidential forum the other day with Matt Lauer where he was asked about the war in Iraq—I'm going to actually read some of this—he was asked about the war in Iraq, and he said, "I've always said we should have just taken the oil."  When asked how he would do this, he says, and this is a quote, "Well, you, you just would leave a certain group behind, and you would take various sections where they have the oil.  People don't know this about Iraq, but they have among the largest oil reserves in the world.  You know, it used to be, 'to the victor go the spoils.'  Now, there was no victor here, believe me, there was no victor.  But I always said, 'take the oil.'  One of the benefits we would have had if we took the oil is ISIS would not have been able to take the oil and use the oil to fuel themselves," end quote. 

Now, it should be clear that this is much worse than just blanking on what Aleppo is.  This is just insanity.  Forget about the logistical problems of, quote, "just taking the oil."  Forget about the ethical problems of taking the main resource from a country we were ostensibly trying to help and further impoverishing tens of millions of people that we have just submitted to punishing sanctions for a decade and who we just freed from a brutal dictatorship.  What's he picturing happening in Iraq to the Iraqi people when we "just take their oil"?  Mass starvation?  Forget about that.  Forget about the fact that ISIS's primary funding hasn't been oil.  They were robbing banks and forcing people to just give them money.  Forget about that.  Just think about how the world, both Muslim and non-, would have responded to our invading Iraq and then just stealing their oil.  Which is to say, confirming the craziest conspiracy theories about why we invaded the country in the first place.  Trump is telling us that this is what he would have done had he inherited the ongoing problem of Iraq.  This is so much worse than not understanding what the word Aleppo means in the context of a weirdly posed question, and yet Trump gets away with it.  And, again, there have been probably hundreds of moments like this in the campaign.  In any case, I've bracketed all of the charges against him that seem spurious, and I've acknowledged that his plain talk about radical Islam is preferable to the sanctimonious lies we get out of the Democrats.  (And if you want to read about what Hillary could and should say about radical Islam, that article's on my blog.)  But I can't overlook the fact that the man shows every sign, really every sign, of being motivated by pure selfishness and narcissism, to be compared with Hillary's partial selfishness and narcissism, and he strikes me as being completely rudderless intellectually.  I mean, you want to understand how I see Trump?  Blow up a balloon without tying off the end and hold it up high and then release it.  Then watch it fly chaotically around the room. That’s Trump’s mind. In my view, that’s what we’d be doing with the country if we put him in charge:  just hitching our country to a totally chaotic system.  If that's your view of "shaking things up", you're a nihilist. 

Ecology was in your quote in previous post.

What you don't understand just because you got used step by step to it, because the media describe this as nearly normal is that the current politic is already utterly insane. Obama, Clinton, and even to some extent Bush Jr., they kind of have a good temperament, they speak normally, they are sharp, but it's just the apparence of sanity. We are best friend forever with Saudi Arabia that applies sharia, is lynching women, LGBT, finances terrorism, has racist laws, that does not recognize freedom of religion, corrupts worlwide politicians, buy everything everywhere, put money in Clinton's Foundation, and we are to believe it's normal. And that does not change whoever is elected. And we choose as a foe a country that in case of war can destroy the planet, and let's accuse them of a hacking without a proof to divert from Clinton gross negligeance. I tell you, on that Trump is much more sane, for me he's like basically sane.

Taking the oil (if not an hyperbole) is insane, I give you that. But so was Bush to invade Iraq based on lies, without UN approval, without after-war plan, that was insane, that was criminal, illegal, and so costly it changed USA economy for decades or even generations. And so was Obama to just leave it brutally as scheduled, let ISIS arise, and not fight it efficiently. See the consequences, not just terrorism, but migrations, and all the people that live there, destroyed and some of them enslaved. And Obama is still there, sharp in his speeches, clever and kind of likeable, talking about the responsibility of the voter. This is insanity.



Norris2k said:

Ecology was in your quote in previous post.

What you don't understand just because you got used step by step to it, because the media describe this as nearly normal is that the current politic is already utterly insane. Obama, Clinton, and even to some extent Bush Jr., they kind of have a good temperament, they speak normally, they are sharp, but it's just the apparence of sanity. We are best friend forever with Saudi Arabia that applies sharia, is lynching women, LGBT, finances terrorism, has racist laws, that does not recognize freedom of religion, corrupts worlwide politicians, buy everything everywhere, put money in Clinton's Foundation, and we are to believe it's normal. And that does not change whoever is elected. And we choose as a foe a country that in case of war can destroy the planet, and let's accuse them of a hacking without a proof to divert from Clinton gross negligeance. I tell you, on that Trump is much more sane, for me he's like basically sane.

Taking the oil (if not an hyperbole) is insane, I give you that. But so was Bush to invade Iraq based on lies, without UN approval, without after-war plan, that was insane, that was criminal, illegal, and so costly it changed USA economy for decades or even generations. And so was Obama to just leave it brutally as scheduled, let ISIS arise, and not fight it efficiently. See the consequences, not just terrorism, but migrations, and all the people that live there, destroyed and some of them enslaved. And Obama is still there, sharp in his speeches, clever and kind of likeable, talking about the responsibility of the voter. This is insanity.

I'm pretty sure you are confusing me with someone else.  If the word "ecology" appears in this thread before you mentioned it, please provide the quote because I can't find it. 

Trump's proposal to take the oil wasn't a hyperbolic exaggeration:  he meant it literally* and we know this because he described what the result would have been (in his mind).  "If we had taken the oil, ISIS wouldn't have been able to use it."  That means he literally was thinking of us taking ALL the oil from Iraq in a matter of a few years.  That's mind-boggling stupidity, and either also evil or just more stupidity.  Even if the current political system is full of maniacs and criminals as you suggest, whose policies are damaging this country, they are at least apparently rational enough to avoid policies that completely devastate the country.  I have no such faith in Trump.  If Trump gets in the White House and the economy doesn't go off a cliff, it'll be because everyone around him is thwarting his every move. 

And there is actually pretty strong evidence that Russia is behind the hacks AFAIK.  It's not just smokescreen.  If you have heard evidence discrediting the idea that Russia is behind it please let me know. 

If the house is full of rats, the solution isn't to set it on fire.

*He meant it literally, unless you admit that he didn't really mean it at all, he was just "completing the rhyme".  Perhaps he only meant to say that we should have taken some oil to help defray the costs of the war, but then he just kept on going to say "and then if we had taken it all ISIS wouldn't be able to take any", which is pure madness.  So the problem is that the more charitable interpretation of what Trump says is that he is such a pathological bullshit artist that he literally does it on autopilot and can't stop himself.  I would rather have a liar than a bullshitter as President because at least I know the liar knows what the truth is. 



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In fact, quotes as foolish as the one about taking the oil are what make me so persuaded that Harris is right about what he is talking about in his "completing the rhyme" analogy. Other explanations of some of the ideas he's put forth require him to be so stupid and/or ignorant that even I have a hard time believing it.



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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