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Forums - Politics Discussion - How are white people supposed to feel about their own race?

Shiken said:
Final-Fan said:

I think you've completely misunderstood what I was trying to say.  I'll readdress the argument and try to do a more thorough job of explaining myself. 

Your post that I was replying to: 
Morgan Freeman said it best. Racism will not stop until we just stop talking about it. Until a Black man can look at a white man and vice versa and just see a man, it will never end. Everyone who is not white wants to play the victim (not literally everyone but you get it), and many whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing.
All races need to just shut up about the subject and see eachother as just men and women. No Black Pride, Asian Pride, Gay Pride, etc will ever get rid of racism. In fact, theh will only fuel it. This thread is a perfect example of that, just look at the title. The more you advertise it, the more people will talk about it. The more you talk about it the more racism will come out.
Everyone needs to just shut up and live as human beings. It really IS that simple. Unfortunately we are beings who over analyze every little thing to find SOMETHING to complain about. That in mind, racism will never end.


1.  You said "everyone who is not white wants to play the victim", generalizing that all non-whites do this.  Then you backtracked with your parenthetical statement, "(not literally everyone but you get it)".  This is in contrast to the second part of the sentence, "many whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing".  So when speaking about whites, you made a statement clearly indicating that many (but presumably not all) whites are part of the problem.  However, when speaking about non-whites, you at first made a statement that was a sweeping generalization saying that all non-whites were part of the problem, and then had to walk it back to recognize that that clearly wasn't actually the case.  I never said anything about you not directing your statement at both groups:  I said that you talked about the two groups in different ways, and one of them was more over-generalized than the other.  I decided to illustrate this fact for you by repeating back to you your statement but with whites more generalized than non-whites (the reverse of your original statement), which you misconstrued as me misquoting you. 

2.  You say that people should just shut up and treat each other right.  That's fine as far as it goes.  But if people aren't treating each other right, shouldn't they speak up?  That's the conundrum that it seems to me that you are ignoring.  If injustice exists, if people "just shut up" then they are ignoring the problem.  But if they speak up, then the people who are perpetrating what other people see as the injustice (but which the ones doing it see as perfectly fine) are obviously going to pitch a fit.  That is what I meant when I said "The more you talk about racism, the more racists get upset."

3.  I think that pretty much addresses most of what you were saying in your post, so I don't believe I was "only bringing out one aspect of your post and ignoring the rest".  I guess one thing that the above only touches on tangentially is your claim that talking about racial issues fuels racial divisions and hatred.  Although I do believe the above does not ignore that issue, let me address it more directly here.  While I do somewhat sympathize with that perspective, thoughtful people should be able to discuss the issue without inflaming hatred; and if there are already problems it's not realistic to think they can be solved without talking about them!  What I think is often the case in these kinds of situations is ugly truths being revealed when those who are not being hurt by it would rather not have to look at it.  Like there's a bunch of rotten food in the back of the refrigerator, and not only do you not want to be the one to have to clean it, you don't even want someone else to be cleaning it when you're there in the kitchen.  And, to carry the analogy, some people are also arguing over whether the milk has really gone bad or not. 

1. Again, you have it reversed.  I said non-white want to play the victim, then added the parentheses which directs the "some but not all" to my comment about NON-WHITES.  Then I put a comma followed by a statement about the whites making it a completely new comment.  Whether you realize it or not, you twisted something to what you expected me to mean due to a preconceived notion most likely fueled by the fact that this is a topic about race.  My exact point in a nutshell.

2. That is not what I am saying.  If someone is being mistreated, speak up.  However this is a matter between the parties involved, not the whole damn country.  When an issue like this grows countrywide (usually by media blowing things up and distortion of the truth), that is when things spread beyond the issue at hand and the situation worsens.  At no point should anyone not stick up for themselves but as topic spreads past where it is relevant, that is when hate and racial assumptions come into play where they otherwise would have never been an issue.

3. There is a major difference between a few thoughtful people with a brain talking about an issue relevant to them and the media making it a distorted countrywide issue that causes problems.  My problem is not with individuals talking amongst themselves or attempting to fix an issue relevant to their area, it is with the massive distortion of views when it goes beyond that.

Just to clarify, I am not mad at you or anything.  It is just you are missing my point entirely and I am trying to clear things up a bit.

1a.  Why are you misreading what I am writing?!  I have explicitly acknowledged MULTIPLE TIMES that the parentheses apply to the first part of your sentence. 
You:  Everyone who is not white wants to play the victim (not literally everyone but you get it), and many whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing.
Me1:  Why did you generalize nonwhites more than whites in the first paragraph?  Compare (compare meaning "look at this juxtaposed with what you wrote; do you notice and object to whites being overgeneralized?):  all whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing (not literally, but you get it), and many non-whites want to play the victim.  You did basically take it back in parentheses, but why say it like that in the first place?
Me2:  You said "everyone who is not white wants to play the victim", generalizing that all non-whites do this.  Then you backtracked with your parenthetical statement, "(not literally everyone but you get it)".  This is in contrast to the second part of the sentence, "many whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing".

Examine the phrase "then you backtracked".  What could I possibly be talking about?  Obviously something preceding the parenthetical statement.  First one thing happens, then another thing happens.  What is under discussion that precedes the parenthetIcal statement?  Your statement about non-whites.  So no, I didn't misunderstand or misconstrue your sentence at all. 

Let me break it down AGAIN and I will try to be as clear as fucking possible. 

1b.  Everyone who is not white wants to play the victim (not literally everyone but you get it), and many whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing.

I will break this down into three parts. 
1:  "Everyone who is not white wants to play the victim"—this is a sweeping overgeneralization that says ALL non-whites are contributing to racial discord.
2:  "(not literally everyone but you get it)"—this is a partial take-back of the previous statement, changing it to mean that not all non-whites contribute to racial discord.  The "you get it" is especially vague:  it could be intended to mean that almost all non-whites are the problem, but there are a few that aren't; or it could mean 'oh, hey, sorry, I didn't mean all at all, I only meant a lot, like "everyone goes to Burger King", you know?'; frankly, I don't "get it". 
3:  "many whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing"—clear statement that many, but not all, whites contribute to racial discord. 

The reason I began talking about this in the first place was to wonder why the second half of your claim (part 3) was stated so clearly when the first half of your claim (parts 1 and 2) wavered between absolute overgeneralization and vague take-backs.  Specifically, to wonder if this was not due to a mental tendency to overgeneralize non-whites in general, which you recognize as wrong (thus the parentheses) but still have a tendency to do when you don't think about it in advance.  Alternatively, perhaps it is just bad writing:  at first you said "all", then realized it was wrong and added the parentheses, then mentally revised the statement to do better in the second half but didn't bother fixing the first half and just left it a mess; but that is becoming less and less likely as time goes on because I would think that you would have owned up to it by now if that was the case. 

2&3.  But if the mistreatment is happening at an institutional or systematic level, individual-level responses are insufficient.  You treat a flu epidemic differently than individual cases of the flu.  A regional or national problem warrants a national discussion. 

4.  For the record, in my first reply, what you thought was a misquote of you was actually intended as a test for you:  how did it make you feel to read it with whites in the more generalized part of the statement and non-whites in the more specific part?  Does it make you feel any differently from when it is the way that you wrote it? 



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I don't feel anything as a white Irish man. I laugh at the people obsessing over tanning themselves to make themselves dark. Likewise black people trying to make themselves white.

Humans are so insecure and it seems too many are not happy the way they are born. Just accept it and move on. It's a non event. Do you think alien's will treat you differently over your colour when they invade us? No. Although they might eat the fake tan ladies first. Be like eating a rib in lovely barbecue sauce.



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Final-Fan said:
Shiken said:

1. Again, you have it reversed.  I said non-white want to play the victim, then added the parentheses which directs the "some but not all" to my comment about NON-WHITES.  Then I put a comma followed by a statement about the whites making it a completely new comment.  Whether you realize it or not, you twisted something to what you expected me to mean due to a preconceived notion most likely fueled by the fact that this is a topic about race.  My exact point in a nutshell.

2. That is not what I am saying.  If someone is being mistreated, speak up.  However this is a matter between the parties involved, not the whole damn country.  When an issue like this grows countrywide (usually by media blowing things up and distortion of the truth), that is when things spread beyond the issue at hand and the situation worsens.  At no point should anyone not stick up for themselves but as topic spreads past where it is relevant, that is when hate and racial assumptions come into play where they otherwise would have never been an issue.

3. There is a major difference between a few thoughtful people with a brain talking about an issue relevant to them and the media making it a distorted countrywide issue that causes problems.  My problem is not with individuals talking amongst themselves or attempting to fix an issue relevant to their area, it is with the massive distortion of views when it goes beyond that.

Just to clarify, I am not mad at you or anything.  It is just you are missing my point entirely and I am trying to clear things up a bit.

1a.  Why are you misreading what I am writing?!  I have explicitly acknowledged MULTIPLE TIMES that the parentheses apply to the first part of your sentence. 
You:  Everyone who is not white wants to play the victim (not literally everyone but you get it), and many whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing.
Me1:  Why did you generalize nonwhites more than whites in the first paragraph?  Compare (compare meaning "look at this juxtaposed with what you wrote; do you notice and object to whites being overgeneralized?):  all whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing (not literally, but you get it), and many non-whites want to play the victim.  You did basically take it back in parentheses, but why say it like that in the first place?
Me2:  You said "everyone who is not white wants to play the victim", generalizing that all non-whites do this.  Then you backtracked with your parenthetical statement, "(not literally everyone but you get it)".  This is in contrast to the second part of the sentence, "many whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing".

Examine the phrase "then you backtracked".  What could I possibly be talking about?  Obviously something preceding the parenthetical statement.  First one thing happens, then another thing happens.  What is under discussion that precedes the parenthetIcal statement?  Your statement about non-whites.  So no, I didn't misunderstand or misconstrue your sentence at all. 

Let me break it down AGAIN and I will try to be as clear as fucking possible. 

1b.  Everyone who is not white wants to play the victim (not literally everyone but you get it), and many whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing.

I will break this down into three parts. 
1:  "Everyone who is not white wants to play the victim"—this is a sweeping overgeneralization that says ALL non-whites are contributing to racial discord.
2:  "(not literally everyone but you get it)"—this is a partial take-back of the previous statement, changing it to mean that not all non-whites contribute to racial discord.  The "you get it" is especially vague:  it could be intended to mean that almost all non-whites are the problem, but there are a few that aren't; or it could mean 'oh, hey, sorry, I didn't mean all at all, I only meant a lot, like "everyone goes to Burger King", you know?'; frankly, I don't "get it". 
3:  "many whites want to pretend that racism is not a thing"—clear statement that many, but not all, whites contribute to racial discord. 

The reason I began talking about this in the first place was to wonder why the second half of your claim (part 3) was stated so clearly when the first half of your claim (parts 1 and 2) wavered between absolute overgeneralization and vague take-backs.  Specifically, to wonder if this was not due to a mental tendency to overgeneralize non-whites in general, which you recognize as wrong (thus the parentheses) but still have a tendency to do when you don't think about it in advance.  Alternatively, perhaps it is just bad writing:  at first you said "all", then realized it was wrong and added the parentheses, then mentally revised the statement to do better in the second half but didn't bother fixing the first half and just left it a mess; but that is becoming less and less likely as time goes on because I would think that you would have owned up to it by now if that was the case. 

2&3.  But if the mistreatment is happening at an institutional or systematic level, individual-level responses are insufficient.  You treat a flu epidemic differently than individual cases of the flu.  A regional or national problem warrants a national discussion. 

4.  For the record, in my first reply, what you thought was a misquote of you was actually intended as a test for you:  how did it make you feel to read it with whites in the more generalized part of the statement and non-whites in the more specific part?  Does it make you feel any differently from when it is the way that you wrote it? 

I am only going to answer 4 because it sums up the entire thing.

 

No it did not make me feel any different, I could care less as like I said in my second post it it was more of a way to not generalize all non-whites into a group.  I did not put it in whites because common sense should have told you that if I feel that way about non-whites, it should be the same for whites so I should not have to repeat myself with a second set of parentheses stating so.  Had it not been overanalysed, you would have figured that out.

 

What I was defending was that by switching the two and then saying I was generalizing non whites, you were implying that I was doing something that I was not.

 

My point is that we are all people and blowing things up is what breeds most of the hate to begin with.  And the thing is, nothing is at a national level.  If it is an employer, the authorities in THAT area should handle it.  If it is an individual, the parties involved should handle it as needed.  At no point has racism been at a national level in recent years like the media will have you believe.

 

Just because something happens in cali does not mean that people in PA should be up in arms for example.  All that does is create tension for everyone in PA when there was nothing wrong to begin with.  If there is a problem in Cali, let Cali handle it OR go to Cali yourself to show your support if you feel the need to.  Don't act like it is a nationwide problem just because something on the other side of the country ticks you off.

 

Not directed at you if course, just giving an example.



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Shiken said:

I am only going to answer 4 because it sums up the entire thing.

No it did not make me feel any different, I could care less as like I said in my second post it it was more of a way to not generalize all non-whites into a group.  I did not put it in whites because common sense should have told you that if I feel that way about non-whites, it should be the same for whites so I should not have to repeat myself with a second set of parentheses stating so.  Had it not been overanalysed, you would have figured that out.

What I was defending was that by switching the two and then saying I was generalizing non whites, you were implying that I was doing something that I was not.

My point is that we are all people and blowing things up is what breeds most of the hate to begin with.  And the thing is, nothing is at a national level.  If it is an employer, the authorities in THAT area should handle it.  If it is an individual, the parties involved should handle it as needed.  At no point has racism been at a national level in recent years like the media will have you believe.

Just because something happens in cali does not mean that people in PA should be up in arms for example.  All that does is create tension for everyone in PA when there was nothing wrong to begin with.  If there is a problem in Cali, let Cali handle it OR go to Cali yourself to show your support if you feel the need to.  Don't act like it is a nationwide problem just because something on the other side of the country ticks you off.

Not directed at you if course, just giving an example.

But your language WAS more generalized when speaking of non-whites than whites in that sentence.  It would have been worse without the parenthetical comment but it was present even with it.  "Overgeneralizing" isn't the same as "being KKK" to any person with at least a hint of common sense, so please don't think I'm trying to imply anything beyond an unconscious tendency to generalize about non-whites more than whites.  (Or possibly bad reading comprehension skills.)  I'm glad that having it reversed doesn't make you feel any differently.  If you felt very defensive of whites being spoken of in a way that you saw nothing wrong with blacks being spoken of, then it would suggest that you see whites and blacks differently. 

But as for people in PA not needing to butt into CA problems ... I just disagree, if the problem is one that CA society isn't handling well.  In the civil rights era of the 1960s the progress was largely made by a national response to a regional problem.  Not to say there weren't problems outside of the South but I think you know what I'm getting at.  A national discussion of a mostly regional problem, and other regions butting into it. 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I'm honestly surprised this thread hasn't been closed up yet.



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WolfpackN64 said:
DonFerrari said:

Yes, we have seem how much the society reform solutions got us on china, vietnam, cuba, venezuela, russia, etc.

When a lot of the "perceived injusticies" are either pony theories, things that solve themselves with time instead of accusations or that depend of oneself development yes I'm very against the "solve by creating new laws" and similar things that are presented.

So when a worker is in a bad work situation, your solution would be "get another job" instead of, "call for union action". Am I correct?

Yes, I done it 3 times already. I preffer to trust in my own capacity than in the hidden agendas of other individuals in the organizations. Do you trust your life to strangers?



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CGI-Quality said:
Azuren said:
I'm honestly surprised this thread hasn't been closed up yet.

Because, for the most part, everyone has remained civilized. We don't just close controversial threads for the sake of it.

I meant that I'm surprised that it has stayed civil  



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bananaking21 said:
Shame, guilt, and arousal.

How I already feel about you.