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Forums - General Discussion - Is becoming a vegetarian/vegan worth it?

hershel_layton said:

I've started to see more and more online articles about vegetarian and vegan diets. 

,stop seeing them, they are fake news, trust me, 

if you wanna lose weight, i guess it is

if you wanna gain weight, eat meat at every given opportunity (as long as you give consent, ofc)

also just saw this is fuckin old ,fuck



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etking said:
If you kill a plant you kill a living being. So there is no reason to be a vegetarian at all. Plants communicate and may have vision and future science might show that they are more similar to animals than we currently think.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/veggies-with-vision-do-plants-see-the-world-around-them/

Future science may suggest they're more similar to animals than we think, though their apparent lack of a central nervous system or a brain does suggest future science may NOT suggest they're more similar to animals than we think.

Of course, that defeats your own argument.  If you're concerned about killing plants, that's a strong argument for going vegan.  A food animal will eat as much as 500 times as many calories as the human gets from eating the animal.  You will kill hundreds, perhaps thousands, as many plants by eating an animal as you will by eating plants directly.  If you're concerned that plants feel pain, then logic dictates that you should go vegan to stop the plant-pocalypse.



I have been a vegetarian my entire life.

Was for religious reasons but due it for ethical reasons.



- If you're only interested for health reasons; no. You're good enough with eating meat once a week. Vegetarianism (ovo-lacteo and vegan) is healthier but, IMO, it is overdoing it.

- If you care about the ethical aspect; yes.

I've been vegan since 2011 for ethical reasons. I've got perfect health and I feel I've made the correct choice, but I can't say it has been easy. I usually don't even hint at it on the internet, since it is prone to attract either the easily offended meat eaters or the militant high-horse vegans and they will attract their opposite either way.

That said, go vegan.

P.D: I'm biased.



ruior said:

[...]Doctor told me most people going vegetarian/vegan that have health problems is because of bad information and going to the internet instead of consulting a specialist.

Cheers

That much is true, except that it's not at all limited to people going veg.  In North America (for example), vegans on average are deficient in three essential nutrients, but ominovres are deficient in 7 essential nutrients.  Source:  http://nutritionfacts.org/video/omnivore-vs-vegan-nutrient-deficiencies-2/

Mnementh said:
[...]
Our (the humans) digestive system is badly equipped for a purely herbivore diet, our intestines are too short. Still we are able to digest fruits, nuts and mushrooms (although the last one poorly). Unlike most herbivores we cannot digest grass, leaves or bark, we just aren't equipped for it. these foods make us sick. Some plant products like seeds we can only digest if we help our digestive system: by breaking it down into flour and baking it into bread. 

No actual study I'm aware of is connecting meat and diseases, only excessive consumption of it.

So no, not eating meat isn't natural. That said, a vegan diet poses also no big problem for human adults if done right (look out for Vitamin B12 and maybe iron). It is strongly recommended not to feed children a vegan diet, the risks of malnutrition are way too high. But for adults it is fine.

Why does our inability to eat grass mean we're poorly suited to be herbivores?  That statement isn't scientific.  Our intestines average about 10x our trunk length, which puts us in the herbivore range.  A pure carnivore is like a feline, it dies if it doesn't eat meat.  A pure omnivore is like a canine, it can live on meat alone or it can live on plants alone.  If humans don't get the nutrients from plants, we'll die of scurvy.  Humans must eat plants to survive.  And we can eat many raw seeds simply by chewing them, or soaking them in water.  B12 and iron?  See my source above, omnivores tend to have more nutrient deficiencies than vegans.  A typical whole food, plant-based diet will contain more total nutrients than a typical omnivorous diet.  Meat, dairy, eggs have very high caloric densities.  So if you're trying to manage your weight (as we all should be), then you'll eat less total food and get fewer total nutrients as an omnivore.  A tiny bit of tuna has as many calories as a gigantic garden salad, but the tuna has fewer nutrients and has a smaller variety of nutrients.

Traditionally we ate mostly fruit and flowers (though the fruit we used to eat was less sweet than the fruits we have today, it was kind of halfway between a modern fruit and vegetable in its fibrousness and nutrition profile).  Omnivores and carnivores can produce vitamin C, that's why dogs and cats don't need to eat fruit and leafy greens to get vitamin C like we do, their bodies produce it.  We're a whole heck of a lot closer to herbivores than we are omnivores.  And you see that in the diseases we get.  14 of the top 15 things that kill North Americans are related to omnivorous diets (in whole or in part).

There are lots of studies that connect animal products and disease.  Here's a study that shows that the less meat and dairy you eat, the lower your risk of diabetes drops:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3638849/pdf/nihms330464.pdf  That's one of hundreds I could cite.  Eating even small amounts of meat increase your risk of many diseases.

There is zero risk of malnutrition to children on an appropriate vegan diet.  Quite the opposite, see my point above about the high caloric density animal foods reducing the total nutrient density of the diet.  Got a source for your claim?

B12 comes from bacteria, it's not synthesized by animals.  They're giving B12 supplements to farm animals these days, as they've made the soil too sterile for them to get it the old fashioned way.  If you eat factory farmed animals, you're effectively eating B12 supplements filtered through animal flesh, rather than taking a B12 supplement directly.  Source:  http://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30#sthash.cy38jSbk.dpbs

ruior said:

About meat being natural/unnatural: are you a naturalist?
If yes then do you use a car or clothes? And what about fast food? And sugar?Toilet paper? Canned food? Cookies? Do you sleep on the wild? Air-conditioning?
We do a lot of not-natural stuff... not eating meat does not seem to me the top of our non-natural worries.

Do I use a car?  Do I eat fast food?  Do I add sugar to my food?  Do I eat canned food?  Do I eat cookies?  Do I use air conditioning?  No to all of the above.  (Well, once in a blue moon I'll eat canned black beans, I suppose.)  Obviously our lives have changed, but I dispute that our current diet shouldn't be at the top of our list of worries.  Our top killers are all corrolated to diet (heart disease, diabetes, many cancers, and so much more).  Seems to me that should be a big concern given it's avoidably killing millions of people every year.  It's the #1 avoidable public health cost.

bonzobanana said:
I look up to vegans/vegetarians who have become so for moral reasons. Most of humanity is pretty low end scum and I don't exclude myself from that description. It's nice to see some of humanity that understand the cruelty and horror of eating animals. Sadly I am a meat eater and do enjoy it but I've managed to cut down hugely on the amount of meat I eat. Most of my freezer is vegetarian food with some exceptions being chicken breasts. I also have a few tins of tuna that I have with salad. I just don't think I can go fully vegetarian and not sure I actually want to. I certainly couldn't go vegan. [...]

For what it's worth, I had a similar journey.  I started gradually reducing my meat consumption about 25 years ago.  I went pescetarian about four years ago, and feared going vegan.  I wanted to always go forward, and I was paranoid that I would slip backwards.  No such worry, I'm enjoying my food now more than ever.  Hilariously, my diet is more omnivorous as a vegan than it was when I was an omnivore.  As an omnivore I tended to eat the same few things over and over again.  As a vegan I have experimented to find new things I like, but I also eat a larger volume of food now to get the same calories, which also tends to promote greater variety.  It's been awesome.  That said, we're all at different stages of our journeys, and it's taken me over two decades to reach the end of mine.  :)

fory77 said:
[...]
also just saw this is fuckin old ,fuck

Of course it is, I bumped this thread expressly for that reason, to see how the last half-year or so had gone for the OP.  :)



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Vegan/vegetarian can work well if you're an adult and very carefull, But Paleo for a more balanced/natural diet that covers all ages comfortably and is easier to maintain



Rab said:

Vegan/vegetarian can work well if you're an adult and very carefull, But Paleo for a more balanced/natural diet that covers all ages comfortably and is easier to maintain

Paleo is not naturally more balanced.  Because paleo focuses in on meat and other high caloric foods, you need to exercise portion control to accomplish weight management.  Studies have shown that when people are put on a whole food, plant-based diet and allowed to eat as much as they want, they actually lose a bit of weight at first (about a 3% drop in their weight).  If you put someone on a paleo diet and encouraged them to eat as much as they want, they'd almost certainly gain weight.

Paleo is also a whole food diet, so that's good.  And the number one thing paleo people eat more of is salads, according to studies on the subject I've read, so that's also good.  But it's important to understand that the paleo diet is pseudo-science.  It bears almost no reflection of what people actually ate in paleo times.  We've rehydrated fossilized stool from around the world from paleo times, so this is a matter of fact, not a matter of debate.  In most paleo cultures, people ate 98 to 99% plant-based diets.  The exceptions were the ancient cultures with the most disease.  They've studied mummified inuit and found that they had atherosclerosis, for example, as you'd expect for a diet with so much meat in it.

There's a myth that you have to be careful to construct a good vegan diet.  Why do I call that a myth?  Because the average vegan diet is far less deficient than the average omnivorous diet (see citation in my previous post).  The average omnivorous diet gives millions of people heart disease, diabetes, cancers, and neurological disorders.  That's further evidence that omnivorous diets are the ones that are deficient, and that constructing a safe and healthy omnivorous diet is really the tough thing to pull off.

Is it just because vegans are so health conscious and eat better than omnivores?  Not so.  The majority of vegans switch to a plant-based diet for ethical reasons (treatment of animals, environmental concerns, and more).  A tiny amount of vegans are on whole food, plant-based diets.  The majority are eating a lot of plant-based processed foods.  Becel is vegan.  Oreo cookies are vegan.  Tofurky is vegan.  Guess what the majority of vegans are eating?  And yet, the average vegan is still healthier than the average omnivore.  Only vegans average in the ideal BMI range, all others are overweight or obese (including vegetarians and pescetarians).  Source:  http://nutritionfacts.org/video/thousands-of-vegans-studied/



scrapking said:
Rab said:

Vegan/vegetarian can work well if you're an adult and very carefull, But Paleo for a more balanced/natural diet that covers all ages comfortably and is easier to maintain

Paleo is not naturally more balanced.  Because paleo focuses in on meat and other high caloric foods, you need to exercise portion control to accomplish weight management.  Studies have shown that when people are put on a whole food, plant-based diet and allowed to eat as much as they want, they actually lose a bit of weight at first (about a 3% drop in their weight).  If you put someone on a paleo diet and encouraged them to eat as much as they want, they'd almost certainly gain weight.

Paleo is also a whole food diet, so that's good.  And the number one thing paleo people eat more of is salads, according to studies on the subject I've read, so that's also good.  But it's important to understand that the paleo diet is pseudo-science.  It bears almost no reflection of what people actually ate in paleo times.  We've rehydrated fossilized stool from around the world from paleo times, so this is a matter of fact, not a matter of debate.  In most paleo cultures, people ate 98 to 99% plant-based diets.  The exceptions were the ancient cultures with the most disease.  They've studied mummified inuit and found that they had atherosclerosis, for example, as you'd expect for a diet with so much meat in it.

There's a myth that you have to be careful to construct a good vegan diet.  Why do I call that a myth?  Because the average vegan diet is far less deficient than the average omnivorous diet (see citation in my previous post).  The average omnivorous diet gives millions of people heart disease, diabetes, cancers, and neurological disorders.  That's further evidence that omnivorous diets are the ones that are deficient, and that constructing a safe and healthy omnivorous diet is really the tough thing to pull off.

Is it just because vegans are so health conscious and eat better than omnivores?  Not so.  The majority of vegans switch to a plant-based diet for ethical reasons (treatment of animals, environmental concerns, and more).  A tiny amount of vegans are on whole food, plant-based diets.  The majority are eating a lot of plant-based processed foods.  Becel is vegan.  Oreo cookies are vegan.  Tofurky is vegan.  Guess what the majority of vegans are eating?  And yet, the average vegan is still healthier than the average omnivore.  Only vegans average in the ideal BMI range, all others are overweight or obese (including vegetarians and pescetarians).  Source:  http://nutritionfacts.org/video/thousands-of-vegans-studied/

Nice well thought out reply, just a few things to look at

What Paleo use meat for http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-much-meat-is-too-much/ 

Paleo is not a pseudo-science it uses science, check this guy (Mark Sission) all he ever does is look at the science  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/ , as new research comes in he changes, he is not fixed

Importantly Paleo doesnt focus on meat, it actually focuses on mostly vegetables and some fruits, then modest amounts of fatty meats (grass feed) and plant proteins, but does avoid high Carb foods like Grains, it also includes different types of excersises, as Paleo isn't narrowly a diet but a type of lifestyle 



If you are doing it to "become healthy" then No, not worth it.
It all depends on yourself and what you value.



You just need to consume more greens and less red meat. No need to go full vegan