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Forums - General - Is free will a myth?

Peh said:
Player2 said:

If this is all you have to say I must have done something right.

The opposite. The next thing you could ask is why does a Banana fits perfectly in our hand.

No, tell me, is this supposed to be an argument against Free Will? Why do you think so?

So you don't get it. Okay, I'll ask again. Do we have proof that the relation between each combination of chemical reactions and electrical stimuli leads to only one action, and that said action can be produced only by that combination?

Even easier: I'm asking for proof of bijectivity between cause and effect.

EDIT - Look at what you've done. It was way more fun with the bunnies, now it's... blargh. It's summer, for god's sake.



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Peh said:
WolfpackN64 said:

My academic handbook on sociology. I would link it, but it's in Dutch.

Just doing some google. I can't make a connection between sociology and that free will exists or not other than enforcing the illusion that it exists.

Anything else on this topic?

The point made was that people are in many ways determined, but that there is always an element of free wil.

It's the sociological standpoint. I might have been a bit arrogant in saying it's a fact. Scientifically there is still a debate of course. But for the sake of our functioning society, free will must be accepted.



in a godless big bang world where everything came to be out of nothing or by accident or some other accident.. free will is the offspring of that BS.



Tsubasa Ozora

Keiner kann ihn bremsen, keiner macht ihm was vor. Immer der richtige Schuss, immer zur richtigen Zeit. Superfussball, Fairer Fussball. Er ist unser Torschützenkönig und Held.

Player2 said:
Peh said:

The opposite. The next thing you could ask is why does a Banana fits perfectly in our hand.

No, tell me, is this supposed to be an argument against Free Will? Why do you think so?

So you don't get it. Okay, I'll ask again. Do we have proof that the relation between each combination of chemical reactions and electrical stimuli leads to only one action, and that said action can be produced only by that combination?

Even easier: I'm asking for proof of bijectivity between cause and effect.

EDIT - Look at what you've done. It was way more fun with the bunnies, now it's... blargh. It's summer, for god's sake.

Too sum it up: Yes, if you go by the same starting factors and test it and repeat it with the same starting factors, the result will always be the same. That's how we define a law in science.

If someone possesses all the necessary factors to predict an outcome, he will be able to do it.

Testing this with brains is not possible, because of the memory effect which can alternate the result. Thus, the starting factors are different. What capabilities the neurons have and what thoughts and acts they can trigger is by every person different kind of different. There are certain regions of the brain which you can say what tasks they have, but neuroscience isn't that far to go for single neurons.

The proof between cause and effect: Physics.



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

WolfpackN64 said:
Peh said:

Just doing some google. I can't make a connection between sociology and that free will exists or not other than enforcing the illusion that it exists.

Anything else on this topic?

The point made was that people are in many ways determined, but that there is always an element of free wil.

It's the sociological standpoint. I might have been a bit arrogant in saying it's a fact. Scientifically there is still a debate of course. But for the sake of our functioning society, free will must be accepted.

Would be surprise about that fact. Free Will is neither proven nor disproven. It's difficult because there isn't even a definition of it :) All you can do is having a philosphycal debate about it and agree with the guy who makes according to you the best arguments.

Theists have also to accept free will. But it doesn't make it more real.

Still, I would like to know what kind of free will defintion you accept or rather your stance on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will 



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

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SkepticallyMinded said:
Nuvendil said:
VXIII said:

I think we need to agree that the human consciousness is more than chemicals and electrical signals. Edit: assuming that we can simulate thoso chemical and electrical pulses in a brain-like machine, I think it is logical to say that machine won't have a self awareness because of said pulses. 

Why would anyone in their right mind agree with this?

Because other beings like animals also have brains with said chemicals and electrical signals. But they lack the consciousness of humans.



I think it's very obvious my will isn't completely free. I mean, I can picture in my mind that I go to my boss and slap his face with my dick and in theory I could perform this beautiful act but I simply can't do it :P My mind is stopping me with too many good points why I should not do it.

But now I'm thinking about getting another cup of coffee or not. I like coffee but I've had enough already. I still have a feeling this could go either way... chemical reactions and electrical stimuli battling, but is there any research or proof how these reactions actually work? How they create dreams, thoughts and decisions I mean.



Alright I didn't really want to get into this, but I guess I don't have free will.

Let me ask this; If everything is decides by chemicals reactions reacting to certain events in a certain context, there must have been a starting point. If everyone is reacting to everyone and everything else, how did the hypothetical first human do this? He didn't have any knowledge on how to do stuff, or others around him to react to. He had to learn, experiment. By extend, the 2+2 argument. Our brain only immediately tells us the answer is '4' because we learned from other humans at some point that this is the answer to the question in simple math. We don't know this by instinct. The first human however couldn't have known this, because there wasn't anyone before him that had come up with an answer to pass down. So what prompted someone to go out and decided we needed an answer to this question?



Peh said:

I've read most of the posts here, so it actually comes to this:

People who believe in Free Will have issues to understand the part of physics in this equation or ignore those completely. But what I miss most of the time is your lack of understanding your choice. If you can choose between 2 different things and go for one of them and argue you could also go for the second, than why didn't you in the first place? <- That's the main question in this debate. Why did you choose? When your answer is: I don't know, I felt like it, then you are ignorant of your own thoughts and are unable to provide any deeper insight of how you work. I would even go as far and tell you, that you don't understand yourself.

People who don't believe in Free Will like me, using methods like logical deduction, known laws of physics, knowledge of neuroscience, observation and skepticism (to some degree) in the equation. I for instance question every thought I make. Why do I think that way, what made me think that way. Where does these thoughts came from. And all I see is the trail and chain of previous thoughts and informations leading to the ones I currently have. Thus, I can see what previos thought made my choice.

Your consciousness is always the last one who receives information. Several parts of your brain, which you cannot alter at any given time, determine what your senses receive from the outside world. And according to those information, the brain will release specific Hormons and trigger specific behaviour depending on what it receives. Again, you (let's say as the consciousness) have mostly no influence to this. That's the subconsciousness. After that is done, you will be made aware of those things. Meaning, you also have a lag to reality, because of the processing time your brain needs. That's a fact. 

When we talk about triggers in the brain, laws of physics and causality. We go down to the neuron level, the part where electrons are traveling from one cell to the other one. The part which makes you think. What triggers thoughts. When we say that Free Will could break the laws of physics, then the following will happen at that level.

Causality should be a term everyone should understand by now. The simple cause and effect. The way everything physical works in this world. I would even go further, but let's stay a bit away from quantum mechanics, because it is unnecessary. If someone would possess the ability of Free Will. Meaning, acting differently in the same specific situation, it would look like this:

You have the option to choose between to different things. Your brain receives certain information through your senses for these 2 different things and makes you aware of it. Different thoughts will emerge in your consciousness making a debate of what to choose. You going through a list of pro's and con's to determine your choice. During your debate of thought more information perceive through your senses and going constantly into your thought process building an equation. At one point you become aware of the time which went by and decide to (another choice being made) ...due to your other tasks which have to be done (Chilling, working, having fun, whatsever) you have to come to a conclusion. All the thought processing is done and your choice should go to A. Well, you go for B and don't understand why. Something in your brain triggered on it's own without a cause which changed your decision and threw all your reason over board. You didn't wanted to go for B, but all of a sudden you did. That's what you would call Free Will. So, what the fuck happened? It seems some neurons triggered randomly which led you to choose one over the other by completely ignoring the causality of your brain and overwrote your thought process.
But, wait, something is not right. You didn't went with B. You went with C. But that didn't was a part of the debate. What the hell is going on? Nothing makes any sense anymore. Why did you stopped breathing? Are trying to kill yourself? For fucking sake, Neurons! Stop shooting randomly.

Later at the Hospital: Congratulations, you have Free Will. Nah, I'm kidding, that's tourette. Something is triggering your Neurons to shoot, and we can't figure out what it is.

OK, just to sum up this strange example. Free Will wouldn't wait for the choice to be made, it would be active all the time and randomly trigger thoughts and everything without ever being a cause for this. A neuron shooting is caused by another one doing the same and so on and so on and from the beginning your brain as been built.

 

Hope that helps... more or less.

First of all, don't be the guy that claims only he is rational and uses logic and his side is logical. Its because you don't have a complete understanding of the human brain and how the thought process works and we don't as well that there is something to debate at all. No human has complete understanding of the brain and how everything works. Hell scientists don't know how memories work and how we are able to so quickly and accurately recover them in so small a time after not having thought about them for so long. That makes you seem self righteous.

Secondly what you described in the first part was what we call involuntary actions that the brain controls directly anyways. We are talking about voluntary actions and the fact that maybe those neurons you are talking about are not so random but are controlled. Just because you say they are random does not mean they are. Also what part of the argument regarding the metaphysical do you not understand? It seems like you are avoiding that to fit your narrative. Just because you can't experiment on something doesn't mean its not there. It could be there or It could not be there. Lack of physical evidence for something that may not be physical at all does not mean its not there.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Teeqoz said:
VXIII said:

I think we need to agree that the human consciousness is more than chemicals and electrical signals. Edit: assuming that we can simulate thoso chemical and electrical pulses in a brain-like machine, I think it is logical to say that machine won't have a self awareness because of said pulses. 

To answer your question. Yes. Just like how emotions happen and being felt before the body start to produce all kinds of hormones which enhance the emotions further (fear first, the comes the Adrenaline) I believe the brain pulses which determine the "dominant system" happen due to our choice and will.  

. I don't see why there should be anything else to the human conciousness than chemical reactions and electrical signals because there's nothing suggesting that there's anything more to it.

There are computers out there that are designed to work just like human brain. Also as mentioned earlier that other beings like animals also have brains with said chemicals and electrical signals. But they lack the consciousness of humans.